Childebayeva et al. Bronze Age Northern Eurasian Genetics

[Jaska]

Yes , east -to-west is a commonly espoused view. However MA Yushkova has suggested that the earliest NWC emerged around Ladoga, with C14 dates in the early-mid 2nd millenium BCe, whilst the Volga-Kama reigon has more to do with post-Srubnaja cultures (i.e. Ponzdnyakovo & Lugovaska).

The emerging aDNA supports it too, some of the Estonian samples are in fact asscoiated with SW Netted Ware, and the are neither related to Volosovo, nor Fatyanovo, nor anything more eastern / Siberian. The disappearance of Fatyanovo-related R1a-Z93 and rise of R1a-Z280 lineages in the Boreal zone strongly implies a replacement from West to East. I think Netted Ware could fit the bill. This is whilst neo-Siberians from the east concurrently expanded to the West. I.e. a dual population replacement.,

The Pozdnyakovo Culture has also been mentioned as one of the sources for the Netted Ware Culture. The textile use itself did spread from the west: it was used in the East Baltic Region already during the Late Neolithic. Could this be related to the spread of R1a-Z280? In any case, the textile impression alone does not define the Netted Ware Culture, so the earlier East Baltic ceramic is not included within this culture. According to Valter Lang, Yushkova also agrees with the Netted Ware having roots also in the Fatyanovo and Volosovo ceramic and derives the Netted Ware in Karelia from Volga.

[Zelto]

What is the thought on Lugovskaya and Pozdnyakvska cultures of the LBA ? Are they southern Forest  variants of Srubnaja ? What is your view of Netted Ware complex ? Could it have spread from karelia / northeast Baltic to Volga ?

How can S-T  'come from the Altai'  when all the preconditions are lacking there ? A good comparison would be the Wessex culture in BA England, which had accelerated Bronze/Tin developments, but its origin obviously lies with the Beaker immigrants, not the preceding Brittish Neolithics, and then that which they produced was just traded retrograde back into continental Europe
I do think the S-T theory of Chernykh has become a sattire in light of current evidence and its veil still hangs over academics works
Lost-Caste waxing was fairly commonplace by the Bronze Age, e.g. one can find it in Poliochni 3000 BC Aegean -Anatolia

I'm not sure what "prerequisites" you had in mind. Metallurgy spread to the Altai-Sayan region with Afanasievo and was followed by a succession of metalworking cultures (Okunevo, Chemurchek, Elunino, etc.) These latter groups had relatively advanced metallurgy and all practiced bronze casting. What "current evidence" are you referring to?
Lost wax-casting was not present among the 'EMP' cultures, or in Siberia prior to ST.

It is the Pozdnyakovo culture which is most closely tied to the Srubnaya culture. The Lugovskaya and Suskan cultures are considered 'andronoid' (i.e. strongly influenced by the Fedorov and Cherkaskul cultures). Some Srubnaya involvement is possible as well. 

Deriving Textile ware from the Neolithic cultures of the East Baltic (Pit-Comb ware) is an old theory. A revised version received some credence when AMS datings of Textile ware from Estonia turned out to be very old (Kriiska et al., 2005). However, the legitimacy of these results has been questioned and the oldest 'reliable' dates come from the Upper-Volga. Lavento & Patrushev have given oral statements at conferences within the last couple years; they found Textile ware from the Mid-Volga dating to the late 3rd millennium BC, the data is unpublished. I think it is still a relatively open question.

[VladMC]

Grigoriev's article describes the problem well and gives a good general overview of the current situation. His personal hypotheses, of course, are very extravagant, but he himself admits it. But the problems that it touches on cannot be solved only using Ural and Siberian material. They need to be solved using material from Eastern Europe in the post-Catacomb period. We completely lack the genetics of Eastern Europe from the territory of Russia and Ukraine from the period 2500-2000 BC, such cultures as Abashevo, Babino, Volsk-Lbishchevo, Balanovo. At the same time, there are several regional options and Abashevo and Babino. The question of the relationship between Alakul and Fedorovo is correctly raised. Despite the huge amount of ancient DNA from Sintashta, there is not a single Y40 and Y3; all samples belong to Z2124. In addition, the question of the form of burials is correctly raised. Cremations are not typical for Sintashta. At the same time, at the Shaytan ozero II site in a layer that can be attributed to both the Koptyakov culture and the Seymo-Turbino culture, all burials were performed according to the rite of cremation. This is not a Siberian burial rite, it is also a European burial rite, but it is unlikely to have anything to do with Sintashta. In general, there are still more questions than answers.


My personal version is that the ritual of cremation was brought to the Urals by the Volsk-Lbishchevo culture. There is not a single burial of this culture on the European part. There are only settlement monuments, as well as ceramics of this culture in the burials of other cultures. I have a suspicion that the burial rite of this culture is cremation, which has not yet been found. This culture was the first to penetrate into Siberia and it was the first to encounter the proto-Fino-Ugric population and received the most ancient borrowings from it. This has not yet been supported by anything. Just speculation

[Queequeg]

The Tatarka Hill samples do not belong to the Samus culture. They represent a hitherto innominate cultural formation, together with the Neftoprovod 1 & 2 sites; antecedent to the Krasnoyarsk culture/Samus-Kizhirovo layer at Tartarka Hill.

Do I get it right that this innominated culture leads into Samus Kizhirovo Culture, also known as Krasnoyarsk Culture? Or, is the Krasnoyarsk related cultural layer just a part of Samus Kizhirovo layer in Tatarka Hill? Would you have more information of the features typical for this innominated cultural formation?

[CowboyHG]

What is the thought on Lugovskaya and Pozdnyakvska cultures of the LBA ? Are they southern Forest  variants of Srubnaja ? What is your view of Netted Ware complex ? Could it have spread from karelia / northeast Baltic to Volga ?

How can S-T  'come from the Altai'  when all the preconditions are lacking there ? A good comparison would be the Wessex culture in BA England, which had accelerated Bronze/Tin developments, but its origin obviously lies with the Beaker immigrants, not the preceding Brittish Neolithics, and then that which they produced was just traded retrograde back into continental Europe
I do think the S-T theory of Chernykh has become a sattire in light of current evidence and its veil still hangs over academics works
Lost-Caste waxing was fairly commonplace by the Bronze Age, e.g. one can find it in Poliochni 3000 BC Aegean -Anatolia

I'm not sure what "prerequisites" you had in mind. Metallurgy spread to the Altai-Sayan region with Afanasievo and was followed by a succession of metalworking cultures (Okunevo, Chemurchek, Elunino, etc.) These latter groups had relatively advanced metallurgy and all practiced bronze casting. What "current evidence" are you referring to?
Lost wax-casting was not present among the 'EMP' cultures, or in Siberia prior to ST.

 

That’s not a very convincing explanation. Let’s examine the facts, most glaringly S-T develops in the wake of the Sintashta folk movement. If afansievo or okunevo were the key, it have developed hundreds of years earlier 
Sintashta had more developed metalwork than Afansievo, and what’s the relevance of Chemurchek in the forest zone  ?

It is the Pozdnyakovo culture which is most closely tied to the Srubnaya culture. The Lugovskaya and Suskan cultures are considered 'andronoid' (i.e. strongly influenced by the Fedorov and Cherkaskul cultures). Some Srubnaya involvement is possible as well.

Deriving Textile ware from the Neolithic cultures of the East Baltic (Pit-Comb ware) is an old theory. A revised version received some credence when AMS datings of Textile ware from Estonia turned out to be very old (Kriiska et al., 2005). However, the legitimacy of these results has been questioned and the oldest 'reliable' dates come from the Upper-Volga. Lavento & Patrushev have given oral statements at conferences within the last couple years; they found Textile ware from the Mid-Volga dating to the late 3rd millennium BC, the data is unpublished. I think it is still a relatively open question.

I didn’t imply it goes back to the Neolithic. I was relaying Yushkova  stating that C14 dates of textile decorations go as early as 2200 bc in ladoga region & Karelia . That’s not really “Neolithic”
But she does allow for a Chirkovo influences from the east 

But in reality, it’s probably irrelevant and not much is “credible” in this area 
What we know is that we go from Volosovo and Fatyanovo type people to Baltic derived CW and siberians I also think that the S-T theory doesn’t explain much as it’s based on false preconceptions which misunderstood what the “culture”/ relicts represent

[VladMC]

No. In Siberia there are sites culture Odino with Seimo-Turbino technology dating back to 2400-2300 BC. This is before Sintashta. Moreover, on these sites there are products specific to ВMAК

[CowboyHG]

No. In Siberia there are sites culture Odino with Seimo-Turbino technology dating back to 2400-2300 BC. This is before Sintashta. Moreover, on these sites there are products specific to ВMAК

Wow. BMAC just began in 25/2400 bc. 
That’s a very rapid spread to Siberia, although WSHG folk were obviously moving about the IAMC. 
Do you recall which site is your reference  to, and what is the C14 reference ?

[tru]

Deriving Textile ware from the Neolithic cultures of the East Baltic (Pit-Comb ware) is an old theory. A revised version received some credence when AMS datings of Textile ware from Estonia turned out to be very old (Kriiska et al., 2005). However, the legitimacy of these results has been questioned and the oldest 'reliable' dates come from the Upper-Volga. Lavento & Patrushev have given oral statements at conferences within the last couple years; they found Textile ware from the Mid-Volga dating to the late 3rd millennium BC, the data is unpublished. I think it is still a relatively open question.

Jaska

There are no Textile ware in the Baltics in the Neolithic, these are all fairy tales. In Estonia, everything is simple there with the Sea Reservoir Effect ceramics, and that discovered vessel is made of sea clay and therefore it is aged a thousand years, it’s just that its radiocarbon dating was carried out back in the days when no one knew about the existence of the Reservoir Effect. The same most likely applies to unreliable rumors about Textile ware from the Mid-Volga, all Textile ware starts in the middle of the 2nd millennium BC.

[tru]

at the Shaytan ozero II site in a layer that can be attributed to both the Koptyakov culture and the Seymo-Turbino culture, all burials were performed according to the rite of cremation. This is not a Siberian burial rite, it is also a European burial rite, but it is unlikely to have anything to do with Sintashta. In general, there are still more questions than answers.


My personal version is that the ritual of cremation was brought to the Urals by the Volsk-Lbishchevo culture. There is not a single burial of this culture on the European part. There are only settlement monuments, as well as ceramics of this culture in the burials of other cultures. I have a suspicion that the burial rite of this culture is cremation, which has not yet been found. This culture was the first to penetrate into Siberia and it was the first to encounter the proto-Fino-Ugric population and received the most ancient borrowings from it. This has not yet been supported by anything. Just speculation

In the Petrovka culture, the almost synchronous Sintashta culture was cremated, not always, but often. Subsequently, the same thing will happen in the Anronovo culture: some of it is inhumated, some of it is cremated. The Volsk-Lbishchevo culture did not cremate, the Volsk-Lbishchevo culture simply buried its dead in the Poltavka mounds. The Volsk-Lbishchevo culture does not have a single cemetery of its own.

[tru]

Yes , east -to-west is a commonly espoused view. However MA Yushkova has suggested that the earliest NWC emerged around Ladoga, with C14 dates in the early-mid 2nd millenium BCe, whilst the Volga-Kama reigon has more to do with post-Srubnaja cultures (i.e. Ponzdnyakovo & Lugovaska).
The emerging aDNA supports it too, some of the Estonian samples are in fact asscoiated with SW Netted Ware, and the are neither related to Volosovo, nor Fatyanovo, nor anything more eastern / Siberian. The disappearance of Fatyanovo-related R1a-Z93 and rise of R1a-Z280 lineages in the Boreal zone strongly implies a replacement from West to East. I think Netted Ware could fit the bill. This is whilst neo-Siberians from the east concurrently expanded to the West. I.e. a dual population replacement.,

The Pozdnyakovo Culture has also been mentioned as one of the sources for the Netted Ware Culture. The textile use itself did spread from the west: it was used in the East Baltic Region already during the Late Neolithic. Could this be related to the spread of R1a-Z280? In any case, the textile impression alone does not define the Netted Ware Culture, so the earlier East Baltic ceramic is not included within this culture. According to Valter Lang, Yushkova also agrees with the Netted Ware having roots also in the Fatyanovo and Volosovo ceramic and derives the Netted Ware in Karelia from Volga.

There are no Netted ware in the Baltics in the Neolithic, these are all fairy tales. In Estonia, everything pottery is simple there with the Sea Reservoir Effect, and that discovered vessel is made of sea clay and therefore it is aged a thousand years, it’s just that its radiocarbon dating was carried out back in the days when no one knew about the existence of the Reservoir Effect. All Textile ware starts in the middle of the 2nd millennium BC.

It is obvious to everyone that Netted ware in Europe is a continuation of Netted ware in Siberia, where this ceramics has been traditional since the Neolithic and comes from Baikal to the west. There are pots indistinguishable from European Netted ware on Baikal.

[VladMC]

CowboyHG

I haven't found that article yet. But I found another article about dating burials with bronze casting molds. “This is also evidenced by the dates obtained from the materials of burials 282 and 594. These burials are included in a special planigraphic group of the monument [Molodin, 2001] with the position of the buried on their backs with their knees bent up, which even allowed us to talk about a special type of burial practice [Grishin, 2002] At the same time, the presence here of objects of the Seima-Turbino appearance, as well as foundry molds for their production [Molodin, 1983], which also occur at the Krotovo burial ground Sopka-2/4B (there are also burials on the back with knees bent up) The sample also included materials from the so-called burial of the “foundry worker,” who was accompanied by bronze foundry items and weapons of the Seima-Turbino appearance (burial 282 [Molodin 1983])."

https://www.elibrary.ru/download/elibrar...180123.pdf
https://imgur.com/ko9ibpo

[CowboyHG]

Ok , a Siberian origin and part of the broader waffle ceramic tradition and Ymyyakhtakh culture would simply things and correlate with aDNA. That’s what I had originally thought but there seemed to be a lot of resistance to the idea …

The west to east Baltic related movement might then be post 1200 bc, Iron Age or something else

[tru]

CowboyHG

I haven't found that article yet. But I found another article about dating burials with bronze casting molds. “This is also evidenced by the dates obtained from the materials of burials 282 and 594. These burials are included in a special planigraphic group of the monument [Molodin, 2001] with the position of the buried on their backs with their knees bent up, which even allowed us to talk about a special type of burial practice [Grishin, 2002] At the same time, the presence here of objects of the Seima-Turbino appearance, as well as foundry molds for their production [Molodin, 1983], which also occur at the Krotovo burial ground Sopka-2/4B (there are also burials on the back with knees bent up) The sample also included materials from the so-called burial of the “foundry worker,” who was accompanied by bronze foundry items and weapons of the Seima-Turbino appearance (burial 282 [Molodin 1983])."

https://www.elibrary.ru/download/elibrar...180123.pdf
https://imgur.com/ko9ibpo

Sopka-2/4B falls into begin the Sintashta interval. So there is nothing exceptional here. Just caught the very beginning of the Seima-Turbino appearance.

[tru]

Ok , a Siberian origin and part of the broader waffle ceramic tradition and Ymyyakhtakh culture would simply things and correlate with aDNA. That’s what I had originally thought but there seemed to be a lot of resistance to the idea …

This is simply strictly proven. Wafer pottery, which is simply a type of Net pottery, just a large net, came to Finland from Siberia probably from the Ymyyakhtakh culture. But as soon as it comes to ordinary Net ceramics, the Finns get into a pose.

[VladMC]

CowboyHG

Target: FIN_Levanluhta_MA:DA234
Distance: 2.2845% / 0.02284473
29.2 RUS_Fatyanovo_MLBA_Volosovo_Danilovo:I20784
27.2 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_X15_2
24.8 Russia_Rostovka_BA:ROT002
10.2 Russia_En_Middle_Don_Vasilyevskiy_kordon_17:NEO170
8.6 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_X11_1
0.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_MLBA:BOO001, BOO003, BOO004, BOO005, BOO006, BOO008, BOO009

Target: FIN_Levanluhta_MA:DA238
Distance: 2.4441% / 0.02444064 | R5P
35.0 Russia_Rostovka_BA:ROT002
20.0 Russia_Volosovo_En_Sakjtish_IIa:NEO189
12.0 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_V9_2
9.4 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_0LS11_1
6.2 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_X08_1
6.0 RUS_Fatyanovo_MLBA_Volosovo_Danilovo:I20784
5.8 Russia_En_Middle_Don_Vasilyevskiy_kordon_17:NEO168
3.0 Russia_Rostovka_BA:ROT016
2.6 Russia_Rostovka_BA:ROT015
0.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_MLBA:BOO001, BOO003, BOO004, BOO005, BOO006, BOO008, BOO009

Target: FIN_Levanluhta_MA:JK1968
Distance: 3.3546% / 0.03354624 | R5P
29.6 RUS_Fatyanovo_MLBA_Volosovo_Danilovo:I20784
25.6 Russia_Rostovka_BA:ROT002
23.4 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_X15_2
12.8 Russia_En_Middle_Don_Vasilyevskiy_kordon_17:NEO168
5.8 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_X11_1
2.8 RUS_Volosovo_En_Berendeevo:BER001
0.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_MLBA:BOO001, BOO003, BOO004, BOO005, BOO006, BOO008, BOO009

Target: FIN_Levanluhta_MA:JK1970
Distance: 2.8169% / 0.02816920 | R5P
31.8 Russia_Rostovka_BA:ROT002
26.0 RUS_Fatyanovo_MLBA_Volosovo_Danilovo:I20784
16.4 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_0LS11_1
8.0 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_X11_1
6.8 Russia_Volosovo_En_Sakjtish_IIa:NEO188
5.6 Baltic_EST_LBA:s19_X15_2
5.4 Russia_Volosovo_En_Sakhtish_IIa:NEO182
0.0. RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_MLBA:BOO001, BOO003, BOO004, BOO005, BOO006, BOO008, BOO009