Seima Turbino samples on my old North-Asian PCA (in blue):
![[Image: ASIATS-FU.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/MGB1s1sw/ASIATS-FU.png)
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Childebayeva et al. Bronze Age Northern Eurasian Genetics
Childebayeva et al. Bronze Age Northern Eurasian Genetics
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Childebayeva et al. Bronze Age Northern Eurasian Genetics
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06-01-2024, 09:16 PM
Code: Russia_Bolshoy:BOO001,0.080814,-0.148267,0.122941,0.095285,-0.070782,-0.001394,-0.001645,0.000231,-0.001432,-0.046652,0.032965,-0.006294,0.015609,-0.05381,-0.0057,0.002519,-0.003129,-0.000127,-0.003394,-0.000375,-0.00262,0.004081,0.005916,-0.00976,-0.005987
06-01-2024, 10:14 PM
Eigenstrat
https://edmond.mpg.de/dataset.xhtml?pers...7/3.HOKI5I (This is actually the old data from 2022 .) I still don't find the new Eigenstrat files from 2024.
Target: Russia_EIA_Minino:NEO538
Distance: 2.3442% / 0.02344186 | R5P 45.8 seima_turbino_Rostovka_ROT2 20.6 RUS_Fatyanovo_MLBA_Volosovo_Danilovo 15.4 Russia_En_Middle_Don_Vasilyevskiy_kordon_17 14.0 Russia_Volosovo_En_Sakhtish_IIa 4.2 Baltic_EST_LBA Target: Russia_EIA_Minino:NEO538 Distance: 2.4811% / 0.02481107 | R3P 46.4 seima_turbino_Rostovka_ROT2 29.8 Russia_En_Middle_Don_Vasilyevskiy_kordon_17 23.8 RUS_Fatyanovo_MLBA_Volosovo_Danilovo 
06-02-2024, 07:04 AM
(06-02-2024, 03:43 AM)VladMC Wrote: Target: Russia_EIA_Minino:NEO538 Many thanks for the models! So, no WSHG or anything related to that in Minino, which is also the case in Rostovka regarding ROT2. However ROT2 already seems to have something Sintashta-like, according to models recently published by Gabru. This ROT2:ish and EHG-CWC-something type of a mixture is possibly/probably also a model for the Ananyino complex.
06-02-2024, 07:32 AM
Ananyino is quite possible, but such a model also corresponds to the formation of the Chirkovo culture. Fatianoid ceramics plus Volosovo plus the Ivanbugor culture plus the Siberian component. Moreover, the Siberian component is represented only by arrowheads and bronze weapons, and ceramic dishes and other local archaeology. Therefore, many archaeologists believed that the population remained local, and the bronze weapons arrived through exchange networks, therefore Seimo-Turbino was considered not a culture but a phenomenon. However, apparently it was the infiltration of armed men from Siberia, who fell into local women's groups that preserved their former household traditions, for example in the field of ceramics. In this sense, Chirkovo is an indicative culture, which has ceramics similar to Fatyanovo, Abashevo and Volosovo, while bronze weapons and arrowheads of the Siberian Seimo-Turbino.
Quote:Most of the samples in this paper have low coverage, fortunately some of them were also sequenced to higher coverage by Harvard (upcoming Zeng et al. paper), so we'll have to wait for those BAMs to get more detailed subclades. ROS002 is just N-L1026, and it should be at least N-Z1936 according to Zeng preprint, while I couldn't find anything derived below R1a-M417 in ROS003. In the beginning of the XXI century, it was suggested that the “Seimo-Turbino phenomenon” was related to the Tocharians. Scientists all over the world did not pay much attention to this “ghostly” northern Seima-Turbino phenomenon in the XXth century. Indeed, at a certain geographic territory, similar “Seima-Turbino” traits in the production of bronze weapons appeared, but this appearance was not accompanied by the appearance of any shared types of pottery or any other shared types of artifacts, serving for the spiritual sphere. Such a situation reminds very much of a situation, which would be caused by purely technical and economic considerations. The Seima-Turbino phenomenon was dated to 15-16th centuries BC in the end of the XXth century. However, the oldest “Seima-Turbino” occurences were redated with certain reservations to the second half of the third millennium before Christ less than 15 years ago. During this period of 15 years, the dating of yDNA haplogroups had already became publicly available. Surprisingly, new dates for the Seima-Turbino phenomenon much better fit the TMRCAs of some yDNA haplogroups, which are available for the general public. Unlike the “Seima-Turbino” phenomenon, which could only conveniently serve as the northern “dead-end” offshoot, the ancient Tocharian population was paid much more attention to in the western world for the potential of its hypothetical intractions with early China. However, today it is already known from archaeology that oldest towns in China are either contemporaneous with the dates for the early Tocharian Afanasievo culture or even older than the early Tocharian Afanasievo culture, which did not have towns. Moreover, today it is already known that the domestication of indigenous varieties of cattle in China started as early as ca.10700 years ago; there are also genetic data on the indigenous horse breeds in China; the oldest Austronesian-related dog, available from ancient DNA of Southern China was dated to 7000 years ago, which is also considerably older than the Tocharian Afanasievo culture. Moreover, the earliest bronze implement in China is older than the new dates for the Seimo-Turbino phenomenon and its design is based upon the indigenous Chinese Neolithic stone implements, used for the same purpose in China; earlier cases of artifacts, made of other metals, than bronze, are also available from Chinese archaeological sites; the oldest chariot pits in China were either contemporaneous with the Sintashta culture or even older than the Sintashta culture. Consequently, it is the southern part of the continental interactions ("pertaining to the Afanasievo sphere") that should be paid attention to, but not the “dead-end” northern part. The genetic contribution of Northeast China’s populations to some “Tocharian” Afanasievo-related individuals, revealed in the IVPP articles, should be paid attention to. “Tocharian” Afanasievo is the population, in which, in the IVPP articles, there appeared small, but meaningful amounts of the eastern components of: [1] of the Northeast China’s population, whose word for “sun” can be inferred to have resembled the non-Mongolic "Jiangsu relic"/"pan-Asian" word “pi” because of interactions in "Ancient genomes reveal the complex genetic history of Prehistoric Eurasian modern humans", and [2] of a more southern ancient Sinitic population...
06-02-2024, 11:08 AM
Target: CHN_Tangbalesayi_LBA:C1714
Distance: 1.0050% / 0.01004985 | R3P 68.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA 21.8 RUS_Khvalynsk_LN 9.8 Denmark_En Target: CHN_Songshugou_LBA:C3348 Distance: 1.5385% / 0.01538538 | R3P 52.2 CZE_Unetice_MBA 36.0 TKM_Gonur1_MBA_o 11.8 RUS_Baikal_EMBA Target: CHN_Kuokesuxi_LBA:C1662 Distance: 0.7645% / 0.00764493 | R3P 67.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA 23.6 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_o_MLBA 9.2 Russia_Volosovo_En_Sakhtish_IIa Target: CHN_Jirentaigoukou_LBA2:C1365 Distance: 1.0855% / 0.01085533 | R3P 55.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA 23.2 POL_MLBA_Trzciniec 21.8 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_MBA Target: CHN_Jirentaigoukou_LBA1:C1367 Distance: 1.0804% / 0.01080436 | R3P 51.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara_EBA 34.2 TUR_Ulucak_En 14.0 RUS_Okunevo_MBA Target: CHN_Tuoganbai_MLBA:C1699 Distance: 2.0445% / 0.02044501 | R3P 69.2 RUS_Afanasievo_EBA 28.0 KAZ_Kazakh_steppe_MBA 2.8 JPN_Jomon_MBA Target: CHN_Tuoganbai_MLBA:C1700 Distance: 1.4199% / 0.01419895 | R3P 52.0 RUS_Afanasievo_EBA 30.6 CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA2 17.4 Russia_Baraba_En_Vengerovo2 Target: CHN_Tuoganbai_MLBA:C1702 Distance: 1.1044% / 0.01104386 | R3P 60.0 CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA1 20.8 RUS_Fatyanovo_Ivanovo_EMBA 19.2 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA Target: CHN_Tuoganbai_MLBA:C1704 Distance: 1.9954% / 0.01995397 | R3P 55.0 RUS_Afanasievo_EBA 33.2 KAZ_Kazakh_steppe_MBA 11.8 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o Target: CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA1:C2037 Distance: 1.7754% / 0.01775384 | R3P 47.0 RUS_Afanasievo_EBA 43.2 Russia_Baraba_En_Vengerovo2 9.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_EMBA2 Target: CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA1:C2046 Distance: 1.7112% / 0.01711208 | R3P 48.6 KAZ_Mereke_MBA 33.2 RUS_Okunevo_MBA 18.2 RUS_Kubano-Tersk_EMBA Target: CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA1:C2047 Distance: 1.8273% / 0.01827254 | R3P 80.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA 15.2 RUS_Boisman_LN 4.8 RUS_Fatyanovo_Yaroslavl_EMBA Target: CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA1:C2049 Distance: 2.7255% / 0.02725473 | R3P 38.0 CHN_Dzungaria_EBA2 32.8 Yamnaya_UKR_EMBA 29.2 Russia_Baraba_En_Vengerovo2 Target: CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA2:C2040 Distance: 2.8026% / 0.02802639 | R3P 47.0 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA_o 29.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1 23.4 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_MBA Target: CHN_Chemurcheck_Chagangole_MBA2:C2048 Distance: 1.4943% / 0.01494337 | R3P 53.8 CHN_Afanasievo_Gongnaisi_BA1 29.0 RUS_Steppe_Maykop_EBA 17.2 TKM_Tepe_Anau_En
06-02-2024, 12:50 PM
(06-01-2024, 04:04 PM)Rozenfeld Wrote:(06-01-2024, 12:06 PM)TanTin Wrote: The data from this study should be very interesting, because we have far East Asians , Europeans and Scandinavians as part of the same culture (archeology). According to former AG member zelto: "I was recently gifted Evgenij N. Chernykh's most recent book Nomadic Cultures in the Mega-Structure of the Eurasian World (2017). The scope of this book is massive but I have just finished reading his chapter focusing on Seima-Turbino. Because Chernykh has been a premier archeologist on this subject for over thirty years, I decided to share what I've read. - The first clear example of an aggressive east-west migration "forerunners of Genghis Khan". - Chance finds in an expanse of up to 4 million km², from the Baltic/Lower Dniester to Central China. There is an inexplicably small number of finds throughout this area. Finds are primarily weapons, flint spearheads, metal jewelry, sculptures and in larger assemblages, nephrite "bracelets" or disks. - ST "cemeteries" rarely contain burial pits, and when they do, they often don't contain human remains. When human remains are present, they are usually burned beyond usefulness to anthropologists. "Memorial sanctuary" or "altar" is sometimes used to denote similar sites. - "Transcultural Phenomenon" is used because Seima-Turbino assemblages appear across cultural boundaries and within synchronous cultural landscapes - Why have no proto-types of ST artifacts been found in this area? Chernykh attributes this to the "Mongolian syndrome". The early ST groups may not have deposited their goods in a way that preserved them over time. Similar to the 13th century Mongols, who left little archeological trace. ST could have altered their belief system after encountering other populations."
06-08-2024, 07:42 AM
The African component related to G25 coordinates of ROT002 is kind of disturbing. Is there any reason to expect that the underlying data will change going forward, for instance and especially in terms of quality?
seima turbino culture (or phenomenon ) migrated to east and west:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oli...carbon.png https://static.cambridge.org/binary/vers...tatus=live west: "there is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of central europe by the seima-turbino peoples. on bronze age settlements in saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [grimm, 1997]. in particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in slovakia, on settlements of the veterov, madjarovce and otomani cultures.they are known on unětice settlements very rarely.often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. sometimes there are pieces of skull. a cer-emonial mask found on the nitriansky hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especially interesting [furmanek, jakab, 1997]. it should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of seima-turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. the connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from south-western poland, where, at the end of phase br a2, the nowagerekwia group occurs, whose formation is usually connected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in slovakia. at this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here. very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. it was uncharacter-istic of unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom trzciniec culture." east : ST Elunin style dagger and ST ring pommel dagger style were found at shimao pyramid culture below: https://i.guancha.cn/news/2018/04/03/201...pg!wap.jpg https://pic4.zhimg.com/80/v2-332f2ceeb47..._720w.webp https://i.natgeofe.com/n/3e74004c-c6a8-4...s_16x9.jpg "The rulers of the ancient city of shimao also popularized this kind of headdress made from human ribs!" ![[Image: v2-e520ff62c2d4538a9e7c7de66feb9f2d_720w.webp]](https://pic2.zhimg.com/80/v2-e520ff62c2d4538a9e7c7de66feb9f2d_720w.webp) source: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/35079084 shimao shaft tomb: ![[Image: 657bc2cc498ed2d78b107664.jpeg]](https://govt.chinadaily.com.cn/images/202312/15/657bc2cc498ed2d78b107664.jpeg) "a higher level of tombs, with rounded corners and rectangular planes, and the tomb area is generally more than 10 square meters, with a depth of 3.5 meters to 4 meters." https://govt.chinadaily.com.cn/s/202312/...ina_4.html Mycenaean shaft tomb: ![[Image: lak_gr2.gif]](https://www.fhw.gr/chronos/02/mainland/en/mg/images/figures/lak_gr2.gif) (06-08-2024, 07:42 AM)Queequeg Wrote: The African component related to G25 coordinates of ROT002 is kind of disturbing. In "A Rare Deep-Rooting D0 African Y-chromosomal Haplogroup and its Implications for the Expansion of Modern Humans Out of Africa", they suggested the “migration out of E-M35 after 47,000 years ago (its origin) and before 28,500 years ago (its divergence)” to the Eurasian continent from Africa. The materials of the Chinese Academy of Sciences support contacts between such a population and bearers of a few Eastern Eurasian mtDNA lineages outside China (mainly bearers from Papunesia, but also Southeast Asian bearers, who had reached ancestors of some Himalayan Tibetans and some Mongols, likely starting already since the later Neolithic period). The materials of the Chinese Academy of Sciences do not support the Eastern Eurasian origin for violence and do not support the transfer of violence practices from Eastern Eurasia to Africa. Unlike this, the scientists of Japan cooperated with western scientists in collecting materials, which would prove the vice versa, already in the 2000s, despite the fact that types of violence were practiced in populations of Africa, including deep original African populations. Additionally, the article “Insights into human history from the first decade of ancient human genomics” suggested the African origin for the African “ghost modern” populations, while populations from mainland China do not originate from such “ghost” populations, and it can be relevant because of the search for genetic similarities between "aboriginal" Eastern Eurasians and deep Africans, conducted by Japanese scientists. Consequently, the IVPP material points to the mtDNA mutation, which can be observed in lineages of mtDNA L0a (the “Nama”/“Khoikhoi” level), mtDNA M7a (whose most ancient more than 20000 year-old representative was found in the Southern Ryukyu Islands of Japan, which is already closer to Papunesia) and mtDNA D4f (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/D4-b/), which is likely a lineage, relevant for the separation of the yDNA O1b2-related population from mainland China to Korea in the Paleolithic, and the yDNA O1b2-related population should have encountered the mtDNA M7a-related population in Korea or Japan. As for the Shimao population, it was noted that at least some of its representatives should have had a connection to the earlier population of the Xinglongwa culture, which formed under the influence of such individuals as yDNA DE-related or northern yDNA C2-M217-related 11000-year-old AR11K individual from the Amur(Heilongjiang) River basin of China: NE-8 M AR11K AR13-10K 11,601–11,176 46.01 125.82 SS 34 27 1.5 D4o DE 274 0.421 225,066 As for the so-called Seimo-Turbino phenomenon, it was treated as a Northern Eurasian phenomenon in the XXth century. Attempts to extend the Seimo-Turbino phenomenon to Central Europe or to the core Chinese territory in the Middle Yellow River basin are more characteristic of more recent English language “newspaper-style” articles, available for the general public. The idea that it is the Seimo-Turbino that influenced the development of the bronze making in China is not supported by Chinese researchers, who do not cooperate with the Western world. Additionally, the IVPP materials “undo” the “demonization” of the earlier layer, represented by mtDNA M80-related population (an “Indian” and “Philippino” sister of the East Asian mtDNA D, which split from the common mtDNA M80’D), which has been implied by the Japanese research, even though East Asian populations, which contributed to the Seimo-Turbino phenomen, appeared to be unrelated to mtDNA M80 population. 
Adding the new coordinates to all ancients and reducing.
A few Uralic populations pick up some ROT002, but... Code: Target: KetROT017 is the most Siberian individual in the paper, in G25: Code: Target: Russia_Rostovka_BA:ROT017ROT017 or Karasuk also appear in some Samoyeds: Code: Target: Nenets
06-15-2024, 01:49 AM
(06-12-2024, 04:08 PM)kolompar Wrote: according to former AG member: "Typological features of Tocharian show strong differences to other Indo-European languages, while being similar to Uralic languages, specifically to the Samoyedic branch. The Tocharian vowel system shows strong similarities to Yeniseian languages, and is structurally identical to the South Siberian system represented by Ket, while being different from the typical Indo-European vowel system. Another striking characteristic of Tocharian is agglutinative case marking and case functions, as well as the lack of dative case. Agglutinative case systems are widely found in Siberia and Eastern Asia, but the case functions, in particular the Tocharian perlative, best match Samoyedic and Yukaghir and comparable systems in South Siberia." - Seima turbino culture migrated to china bronze age: https://www.academia.edu/45055541/Seima_..._Silk_Road - "Abstract: "**tees" was the supreme god worshipped by the early ancient people wholived in the Delta of the Yellow River (DYR). All the people of Xia4, Shangl and Zhouldynasties worshipped him. There are many striking similarities between Old Chinese "*tees" andProto-Indo-European "*deus," based on the ancient documents. In addition, we have proof fromcomparative historical linguistics to verify that the two words share the same source. Evidencefrom historical records and linguistics comes to a common conclusion: the early civilization ofDYR received crucial influence from early Indo-European civilization." Old Chinese “*tees” and Proto-Indo-European “*deus”: Similarity in Religious Ideas and a Common Source in Linguistics (sino-platonic.org) - by Alexander Lubolsky "Tocharian Loan Words in Old Chinese: Chariots, Chariot Gear, and Town Building", |
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