The R1b-BY14355 Branch Under R1b-M343

[rmstevens2]

Just when I think I know something, I find out just how little I really know. I'm really behind the curve on the whole BY14355 branch of R1b-M343. There are quite a few ancient samples on this line under PH155 and FTB1, most of them from China. Seems to me all of this evidence, which is refreshingly new to me, taken together with what we already know, indicates that R1b-M343 probably had a north Asian origin.

I'm hoping this thread will start a discussion of the R1b-BY14355 branch of R1b-M343. The other, parallel, branch under R1b-M343 is R1b-L754, which is the most numerous Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe. I'd also like to explore how what we are learning about this branch adds to our understanding of the origin of R1b-M343. 

Here's my very simple R1b-M343 Descendant Tree. I'll probably also make an R1b-BY14355 tree and post it later. These graphics help me understand what's going on. I post them for myself as much as for anyone else.

[rmstevens2]

Okay, here is my R1b-BY14355 Descendant Tree. I did not carry it all the way out to all descendant lines. If you are interested in those, you can check them in FTDNA Discover.

[rmstevens2]

Here's the oldest of the ancient samples under R1b-BY14355 thus far, who is actually under R1b-FTB1 (under BY14355): Xiaohe 5209, 2000 - 1800 BC, from the Xiaohe Cemetery in the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang, China. 

[jdean]

Here's the oldest of the ancient samples under R1b-BY14355 thus far, who is actually under R1b-FTB1 (under BY14355): Xiaohe 5209, 2000 - 1800 BC, from the Xiaohe Cemetery in the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang, China. 

Ha, as soon as I started reading your thread I wondered to myself if this could have anything to do with Tocharian and then you point out this aDNA result on the Time Tree : )

[rmstevens2]

Here's the oldest of the ancient samples under R1b-BY14355 thus far, who is actually under R1b-FTB1 (under BY14355): Xiaohe 5209, 2000 - 1800 BC, from the Xiaohe Cemetery in the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang, China. 

Ha, as soon as I started reading your thread I wondered to myself if this could have anything to do with Tocharian and then you point out this aDNA result on the Time Tree : )

Below is a link to the 2021 Zhang et al paper in which these ancient BY14355 samples appear:

The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies

[999girlful]

Here's the oldest of the ancient samples under R1b-BY14355 thus far, who is actually under R1b-FTB1 (under BY14355): Xiaohe 5209, 2000 - 1800 BC, from the Xiaohe Cemetery in the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang, China. 

Ha, as soon as I started reading your thread I wondered to myself if this could have anything to do with Tocharian and then you point out this aDNA result on the Time Tree : )

Below is a link to the 2021 Zhang et al paper in which these ancient BY14355 samples appear:

The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...credible/1 has more discussion about the Zhang et al. 2021 paper.
According to FTDNA Discover, 3 male samples from EMBA Tarim Basin are R1b-M343>BY14355>FTB1>FTC300.

[rmstevens2]

Here's the oldest of the ancient samples under R1b-BY14355 thus far, who is actually under R1b-FTB1 (under BY14355): Xiaohe 5209, 2000 - 1800 BC, from the Xiaohe Cemetery in the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang, China. 

Ha, as soon as I started reading your thread I wondered to myself if this could have anything to do with Tocharian and then you point out this aDNA result on the Time Tree : )

Below is a link to the 2021 Zhang et al paper in which these ancient BY14355 samples appear:

The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...credible/1 has more discussion about the Zhang et al. 2021 paper.
According to FTDNA Discover, 3 male samples from EMBA Tarim Basin are R1b-M343>BY14355>FTB1>FTC300.

Lots of good stuff there! Thanks!

I had been thinking about a modern R1b man from Bhutan that I had heard of some years ago but couldn't remember the details. Your link led me to the answers. He is sample bhu-0984 from the 2014 Hallast et al paper, "The Y-chromosome tree bursts into leaf: 13,000 high-confidence SNPs covering the majority of known clades".

He belongs to R1b-PH1578, which is downstream of R1b-BY14355.

Interesting!

bhu-0984

[Ebizur]

Here's the oldest of the ancient samples under R1b-BY14355 thus far, who is actually under R1b-FTB1 (under BY14355): Xiaohe 5209, 2000 - 1800 BC, from the Xiaohe Cemetery in the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang, China. 

Ha, as soon as I started reading your thread I wondered to myself if this could have anything to do with Tocharian and then you point out this aDNA result on the Time Tree : )

Below is a link to the 2021 Zhang et al paper in which these ancient BY14355 samples appear:

The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...credible/1 has more discussion about the Zhang et al. 2021 paper.
According to FTDNA Discover, 3 male samples from EMBA Tarim Basin are R1b-M343>BY14355>FTB1>FTC300.

Lots of good stuff there! Thanks!

I had been thinking about a modern R1b man from Bhutan that I had heard of some years ago but couldn't remember the details. Your link led me to the answers. He is sample bhu-0984 from the 2014 Hallast et al paper, "The Y-chromosome tree bursts into leaf: 13,000 high-confidence SNPs covering the majority of known clades".

He belongs to R1b-PH1578, which is downstream of R1b-BY14355.

Interesting!

bhu-0984

Another individual in that same sample of Bhutanese males, bhu-1953, belongs to R-CTS7763/R-CTS8966, a subclade of R-Z2103 > R-Z2106, according to my notes.

According to TheYtree, bhu-1953 belongs more precisely to R-PH4902 (TMRCA 4100 ybp) alongside I2062 from Tel Shadud, Israel (Israel_MLBA 3170 ybp), RISE397 aka ERS699098 (ancient DNA from Armenia), and I19348 (some other ancient sample with a paper by the title of "A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and West Asia" cited as the source) plus several present-day individuals: ERS256993 from Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy, SRS8752806 from Turkey, WGC063905D from Taxkorgan Tajik Autonomous County, Xinjiang, China, Uzbek-16 ethnic Uzbek from Turkistan Region, Kazakhstan, SRS8752168 from Turkey, and Captain Dragon Dragon (Lóng lóng duìzhǎng), this last one being a commercially-tested individual who has registered as a Han Chinese surnamed 张 Zhāng from Shandong, China.

In other words, there must have been some degree of relatively recent (roughly within the last four millennia) gene flow connecting Bhutan with Central Asia and with the Mediterranean world. The R-PH1578 lineage of bhu-0984 may have nothing to do with the gene flow that has brought the R-PH4902 lineage of bhu-1953 to Bhutan, but it is something to keep in mind.

[Ebizur]

I have looked up the details regarding the RISE397/ERS699098 and I19348 specimens, and I have found that they both are from Armenia.

RISE397/ERS699098 appears to be an ancient specimen from Kapan, which is located in the southeasternmost corner of present-day Armenia, on the border with the Republic of Azerbaijan (its Karabakh part as opposed to its Nakhchivan part).

I19348 should be an ancient specimen from Karashamb, which is located in the very center of present-day Armenia, according to the final paragraph of the "Haplogroups more frequent inside the Southern Arc than outside it" section of the supplementary materials for "The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe" by Iosif Lazaridis, Songül Alpaslan-Roodenberg et al. (2022):

We commented above on the specificity of the R-Y13369 lineage to Armenia/Iran and its descent from the general R-M12149 lineage which also encompasses individuals of the Yamnaya cluster from the steppe. A sister lineage of R-Y13369 is R-Z2106 which is also found in many examples of the Yamnaya cluster.(4, 8, 9, 15, 34) This is found in only two examples from Bronze Age Armenia (I19348 from Karashamb and RISE397.SG from Kaplan(4) [sic]), but it also included all 3 individuals of R-M12149 (from North Macedonia and Albania) that we discussed before, which furthermore were all derived for downstream haplogroup R-Z2108. Thus, R-Z2106 represents a genetic link between the steppe, the Balkans, and the South Caucasus, with R-Z2108 evident only in the Balkans. The TMRCA of all these lineages (including R-M12149) is ~5,400 years ago, suggesting that the downstream lineages arose in rapid succession.

The following is from the archaeological description of the Karashamb Cemetery provided in the aforementioned supplementary materials of Lazaridis et al. (2022):

For this study, samples were analyzed from tombs dating to the various phases of the Late Bronze and Iron Ages. The majority of the submitted samples, particularly those excavated during the 2009-2015 seasons belong to the second and third phases of the Lchashen-Metsamor archaeological culture: LM II: Tombs No. 435, 436, 513, 549, 591, 592, 593, 595 (XIV - XIII centuries BCE) and LM III: Tombs No. 361, 362, 478, 482 (XIII-XII centuries BCE). The first phase of the Iron Age is represented by Tombs No. 542, 570, 571, 604, 606 (LM IVA: XII-XI/X centuries BCE). In Tomb No. 444 burials derive from three different periods. The lower burial contained three skeletal remains with materials typical of the early stages of the second phase of the Lchashen-Metsamor complex (LM II: XV – XIV centuries BCE). The succeeding burial was represented by a single skeleton and pottery dated to the XI – IX centuries BCE (LM IVB). The upper (last) burial is represented by remains of 5 distinct individuals and materials dated to the first quarter of the VII century BCE and first half of the VI century BCE (LM VB).
• I16220/1910; 606-1; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I16217/1907; 10; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19331/ P5939;1; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19332/P5940;6; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19333/P5941;38; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19334/ P5942;1985; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19335/P5943; 549; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19336/P5944; 595; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19337/P5945; 604; LM culture; EIA-1 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19338/P5946; 482; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19339/P5947; 362; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19340/ P5948; P7868; Burial 513; LM culture (premolar tooth), genetically male.
• I19341/P5949; 592; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19342/P5975; 478; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19343/P5976; 606-1; LM culture; EIA-1 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19344/P5982; 591; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19345/P5983; 5; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19346/P5984; 2; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19347/P5985; ?; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19348/P5986; 435; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19349/P5987; 570; LM culture; EIA-1 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19350/P5988; 361; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19351/P5989; 436; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19352/P5990; 593 M2; LM culture; LBA-2 (petrous bone), genetically female.
• I19353/P5991; 542; LM culture; EIA-1 (petrous bone), genetically male.
• I19354/P5992; 3; LM culture; LBA-3 (petrous bone), genetically male.

So, both I19348 and RISE397 appear to be male specimens associated with the Lchashen-Metsamor archaeological culture of Late Bronze Age Armenia, but they have been found at two sites that are quite distant from each other, though both are located within the borders of present-day Armenia.

According to TheYtree, R-CTS8966, with an estimated TMRCA of 4660 ybp, includes the previously mentioned members of R-PH4902 (TMRCA 4100 ypb) as well as the following members of R-CTS8966(xPH4902):

*SRS8752804 from Turkey
*SRS8752131 from Turkey
*SRS8752406 from Turkey
*NA18645 Han Chinese in Beijing (from the CHB sample)
*OLN010 (Early Medieval Uyghur; Grave 19 (person 3), square stone grave, site is located in the Orkhon valley region near Karbalgas, the Uyghur capital; Olon Dov, Arkhangai, Mongolia)

OLN010, who has been attributed to the historical Uyghurs of the territory of present-day Mongolia, shares the Y18961 and BY3295 SNPs with the R-PH4902 subclade. SRS8752804, SRS8752131, and SRS8752406 from present-day Turkey and NA18645 from present-day Beijing, on the other hand, exhibit neither the Y18961 SNP nor the BY3295 SNP.

Also cf. R-CTS8966 on YFull. Members of this clade seem to be present among various ethnic groups in the Caucasus (e.g. Chechen, Adyghe, Kumyk, Talysh) and Southern Europe (e.g. French, Sardinian, Macedonian) as well as among Arabs and Iranian Laks.

[rmstevens2]

Here's the oldest of the ancient samples under R1b-BY14355 thus far, who is actually under R1b-FTB1 (under BY14355): Xiaohe 5209, 2000 - 1800 BC, from the Xiaohe Cemetery in the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang, China. 

Ha, as soon as I started reading your thread I wondered to myself if this could have anything to do with Tocharian and then you point out this aDNA result on the Time Tree : )

Below is a link to the 2021 Zhang et al paper in which these ancient BY14355 samples appear:

The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...credible/1 has more discussion about the Zhang et al. 2021 paper.
According to FTDNA Discover, 3 male samples from EMBA Tarim Basin are R1b-M343>BY14355>FTB1>FTC300.

At one time it was thought the Tarim Basin mummies were all R1a (I don't recall the paper that produced the R1a results). Now it seems likely none of them were, and most of them belonged to clades downstream of BY14355. 

Here's a quote from Davidski at his Eurogenes Blog commenting on the 2021 Zhang et al paper:

Davidski said...

It's no longer certain if any of the mummies belonged to R1a(xZ93), because those results were based on old PCR tests.

My bet is that there will be late mummies with R1a in the Tarim Basin, but all or almost all will be Z93, and derived from the Andronovo population.

October 27, 2021 at 11:59 PM

[rmstevens2]

Like I said at the start of this thread, R1b-BY14355 is something of a new discovery for me. I'm learning more about it as I get the opportunity. 

Have you all checked out the ancient samples in FTDNA Discover's Time Tree and Ancient Connections that belong to various clades of BY14355? They're pretty amazing, and very Central Asian: Tarim Basin mummies, Xiongnu, Huns, Mongols, etc. 

There is one BY14355 from medieval Europe: a Gepid, "Viminacium 2", from Viminacium-Više Grobalja, Kostolac, Serbia, dated 525-575 AD. He was R1b-BY17637 (BY14355>PH155>PH2274>FT1650>M335>BY17637).

The Gepids were a Germanic people with some Hunnic ancestry. It's not too hard to tell Viminacium 2's Y-DNA lineage was Hunnic (look at the other ancient Central Asian Xiongnu and Hun samples in Ancient Connections belonging to clades of BY14355).

Fascinating stuff! 

[rmstevens2]

A number of ancient Xiongnu samples belong to clades of BY14355. Here is something interesting from the Britannica article on the Xiongnu:

Xiongnu raids continued periodically in the subsequent period, but all references to the tribe disappear after the 5th century. The dominant nomad people in the Mongolian steppe in the 7th century, the Tujue, were identified with the Turks and claimed to be descended from the Xiongnu. A number of Xiongnu customs do suggest Turkish affinity, which has led some historians to suggest that the western Xiongnu may have been the ancestors of the European Turks of later centuries.

FTDNA does show Turkey as one of the modern nations where BY14355 is found. It makes me wonder if BY14355 was one of the original Central Asian Y-DNA haplogroups the Turks brought with them to Anatolia. 

Anyone know of any stats on the frequency of BY14355 (including its subclades) among the Turks?

[rmstevens2]

Okay, here is my R1b-BY14355 Descendant Tree. I did not carry it all the way out to all descendant lines. If you are interested in those, you can check them in FTDNA Discover.

Took the tree farther up from the root by making a R1b-PH200 Descendant Tree (PH200 is under PH155>PH2274 in the lower left in the tree in the quote above).

Here's the R1b-PH200 Descendant Tree. 

[rmstevens2]

I'm really curious about how populous a clade BY14355 is. It seems to me Central Asia and China are not all that well known when it comes to Y-DNA testing. How big is BY14355 in the regions one can see on the map below? And also Mongolia, the SW corner of which barely shows up on the map.

[rmstevens2]

Since BY14355 is one of only two brother clades under R1b-M343 thus far, I am wondering just how successful and extensive it was and is. Pretty obviously L754 has been pretty successful, especially in western Eurasia.

Here is my basic R1b-M343 Descendant Tree again, but with some notes (which are not intended to be exhaustive).