RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - pelop - 03-18-2024
(03-18-2024, 03:25 AM)Bollox79 Wrote: Hmm for anyone interested found a bit on the inhumations at Velkenburg... assuming these are the same ones in the paper from that site - they were pretty beaten up... pathology wise. Quoting this from a bit of the paper (which you can find here: https://archaeology.datastations.nl/file.xhtml?fileId=1243260&version=2.0):
Some more information on the Roman cemetery at Valkenburg:
https://www.academia.edu/1997586/STRONTIUM_ISOTOPE_ANALYSIS_ON_INHUMATIONS_FROM_THE_ROMAN_CEMETERY_OF_VALKENBURG_MARKTVELD
Apart from the genetically non-local individuals (Gallic?), sample CGG107753 has a presumably Rome_Imperial genetic profile ("0_4_3_1_WMed" cluster, S2 sheet in the suppl. excel file), belongs to J-L70->PF5430 and has local isotopes per the analysis above (burial number: I052). Unfortunately this sample is not directly RC-dated.
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Rodoorn - 03-18-2024
(03-17-2024, 08:13 PM)alanarchae Wrote: I don’t think i’ve seen a paper that tries to solve so many issues. It’s a hard one to get your head around. But it has the ring of truth about it. The complexity of genetic mixing in Scandinavia in the beinze and iron ages doesn’t surprise me though as Germanic has always looked like a peculiar branch that looks like a tug of war in several directions. I’m also not surprised by the eastern north sea subgroup surving fairly pure in its western end until the migration era or that it was a significant factor (admixed with eastern scandinavian overlay) in iron age Jutland. I just wonder how this fits into NW Block and the mystery of the Celtic-like Cimbri and Teutnes.
Is eastern north sea (esn) not just the NW Block area? Or is this also connected to Jutland?
My impression from the paper is that ESN is in the NW block area.....but correct me if I'm wrong.
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Pylsteen - 03-18-2024
(03-17-2024, 07:56 PM)cottager Wrote: In the end, where is the root of I1, the Eastern Baltic or the Danish Islands?
(03-18-2024, 12:07 PM)Rodoorn Wrote: (03-17-2024, 08:13 PM)alanarchae Wrote: I don’t think i’ve seen a paper that tries to solve so many issues. It’s a hard one to get your head around. But it has the ring of truth about it. The complexity of genetic mixing in Scandinavia in the beinze and iron ages doesn’t surprise me though as Germanic has always looked like a peculiar branch that looks like a tug of war in several directions. I’m also not surprised by the eastern north sea subgroup surving fairly pure in its western end until the migration era or that it was a significant factor (admixed with eastern scandinavian overlay) in iron age Jutland. I just wonder how this fits into NW Block and the mystery of the Celtic-like Cimbri and Teutnes.
Is eastern north sea (esn) not just the NW Block area? Or is this also connected to Jutland?
My impression from the paper is that ESN is in the NW block area.....but correct me if I'm wrong.
I wonder... in my mind we might have two separate blocks originally (Hilversum vs. Elp) but perhaps they had blended already later on.
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Rodoorn - 03-18-2024
According to the paper the East North Sea (ESN) genetic cluster is Bell Beaker derived.
ESN= NW block speakers!?
ESN/NW Block
yellow and blue area with regard to West Dutch/ and NE Dutch/ NW German Bell Beakers, according to archeologist Lanting (2007/2008):
same area in BA times, based on knives distribution by Butler, Arnoldussen and Steegstra:
I guess this is core NW Block.
As fare as I know Kuhn but also other linguists made a link between NW block with (Italo-)Celtic.....
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Bollox79 - 03-18-2024
(03-18-2024, 11:31 AM)Ajeje Brazorf Wrote: Samples Y-DNA
Show Content
SpoilerAUT_Durrnberg_Hallstatt_IA:CGG101232__R1b1a1b1a2 / R1b / R1b-Z2118
AUT_Gmunden_Hallstatt_IA:CGG101214__R1b1a1b1a1a1 / R1b / R1b-U106
AUT_Gmunden_Hallstatt_IA:CGG101222__R1b1a1b1b3a
Crimea_Chersonesus_IA:CGG021473__E1b1b1a1b1a2~
Crimea_Chersonesus_IA:CGG021475__E1b1b1a1b1a16a~
Crimea_Goth_Migration:CGG017683__G2a2a1a2a1a1b2~
Crimea_Sarmatian:CGG017682__R1a1a1b2a2b2b~
CZE_Hallstatt_IA:CGG021890__R1b1a1b1a1
CZE_Langobard:CGG021981__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2b1a~
CZE_LaTene_IA:CGG021735__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
CZE_LaTene_IA:CGG021736__R1b1a1b1a1a2b / R1b / R1b-U152 (BY3549)
CZE_LaTene_IA:CGG021738__R1b1a1b / R1b / R1b-M269
CZE_LaTene_IA:CGG021839__R1b1a1b1a1a2b / R1b / R1b-U152 (BY3549)
CZE_LaTene_IA:CGG021846__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
DEU_Saarland_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023735__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
DNK_Bornholm_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106751__N1a1a1a1a1a1a
DNK_Bornholm_LateRoman_IA:CGG106747__R1a1a1b1a2b3~
DNK_Bornholm_Roman_IA:CGG106748__I1a2a1a1a1a2b~
DNK_Bornholm_Roman_IA:CGG106750__E1b1b1b2a1a6d2~
DNK_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107482__I1~
DNK_EBA:CGG107525__I1 / I1 / I1-M253
DNK_Falster_EarlyNeolithic:CGG106742__I2a1a2~
DNK_Falster_PreRoman_IA:CGG106735__I1a / I1a / I1a-DF29
DNK_Falster_PreRoman_IA:CGG106740__I1a2a1a
DNK_Funen_EarlyNeolithic:CGG105358__I2a2~
DNK_Funen_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106837__R1b1a1b2a1b
DNK_Funen_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107532__I2a1b1a2b1a2a1
DNK_Funen_EBA:CGG100212__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Funen_EBA:CGG106805__I2a1b1a2b2~
DNK_Funen_IA:CGG107529__R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a4b2c
DNK_Funen_PreRoman_IA:CGG100144__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Funen_PreRoman_IA:CGG106709__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2a1b1
DNK_Funen_PreRoman_IA:CGG106804__R1a1a1b / R1a / R1a-PF6162
DNK_Funen_Viking:CGG105541__I1a2a1a1a2~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019200__R1b1a1b1a1a2e2~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019201__I2a1b1a2b1a2a1a~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019202__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019203__R1a1a1~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019204__R1a1a1a1b1~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019205__R1b1a1b1a1a1d
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019206__R1a1a1~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019208__R1a1a1~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019209__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2a1b1b1a
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019210__I1a1a~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019211__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019212__I2a1b1a2b1a2a1
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019214__R1a1a1a1b~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019215__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2a
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG019216__I1a2a1a1~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106531__I1~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106810__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107476__I2a1b1a2b2~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107479__I1~
DNK_Jutland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107480__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Jutland_Germanic_IA:CGG106553__R1a1a1b1a3a~
DNK_Jutland_IA:CGG016034__I2a1b1a2b1a1~
DNK_Jutland_IA:CGG106503__R1a1a1b1a3a~
DNK_Jutland_LateRoman_IA:CGG106813__R1a1a1~
DNK_Jutland_LateRoman_IA:CGG107425__R1a1a1~
DNK_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG023270__I2a1a2~
DNK_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG023274__R1b1a1b1a1a1g
DNK_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG106041__I2a1a / I2a / I2a-P37
DNK_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG106484__R1b1a1b / R1b / R1b-M269
DNK_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG106485__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
DNK_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG106524__I1a3a1a2a1b1a~
DNK_Jutland_PreRoman_IA:CGG106525__R1a1a1~
DNK_Jutland_Roman_IA:CGG106489__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Jutland_Viking:CGG106529__I1a2a2
DNK_Langeland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106773__I1a2a1~
DNK_Langeland_EBA:CGG106744__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106774__R1a1a1b~
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106775__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2a1b
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106776__I1a1b1a~
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106777__I1a2a1a1a1a
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106781__I1a2a1a1~
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106782__E1b1b1a1b1a / E1b / E1b-V13
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106785__I1a1b1a1e~
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106787__I1a~
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106790__I1a3g~
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106791__I2a1a2b1a1a1
DNK_Langeland_Viking:CGG106792__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a
DNK_Lolland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107481__I1~
DNK_Lolland_LBA:CGG106737__E1b1b1b1a1e1b1~
DNK_Lolland_LN:CGG106712__I1a~
DNK_Lolland_PreRoman_IA:CGG017610__I1b
DNK_Moen_LateGermanic_IA:CGG017609__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Zealand_BA:CGG105333__I1a~
DNK_Zealand_BA:CGG105334__I1~
DNK_Zealand_BA:CGG106705__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_BA:CGG106706__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_BA:CGG106707__R1b1a1b1a / R1b / R1b-L51
DNK_Zealand_BA:CGG106708__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_EarlyGermanic_IA:CGG107387__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a
DNK_Zealand_EarlyNeolithic:CGG107526__R1b1b / R1b / R1b-V88
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106718__I1a~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106720__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106721__I1a2a1a
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106722__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106724__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106726__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106728__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106730__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG106795__R1a1a1b1a1~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107392__I1a~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107441__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107442__I1a2a1a1d2~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107443__I1a~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107446__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107447__I1a2a1a1d2~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107449__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107451__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107454__R1a1a1b1a3~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107459__I1a2a2a
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107467__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b1b3b
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107484__R1a1a1b1a3a2
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107486__I1a2a1~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107488__I1a2a2a3~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107489__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a1
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107490__R1a1a1b1a3a2a
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107494__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107495__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107498__R1b1a1b1a1a1g
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107502__I1a2a1a1d2~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107504__R1a1a1b1a / R1a / R1a-Z282
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107505__I1~
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107506__R1b1a1b1a1a3a1
DNK_Zealand_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107507__I1a2a1a1~
DNK_Zealand_EBA:CGG106515__I1a2a1a1a / I1a / I1a-Z140
DNK_Zealand_IA:CGG107518__I1a1b1a~
DNK_Zealand_Late_IA:CGG107386__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2b1a~
DNK_Zealand_LateGermanic_IA:CGG106841__I1a1b1a~
DNK_Zealand_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107515__I1a2a1a1a6~
DNK_Zealand_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107516__I1~
DNK_Zealand_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107519__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2a1b1a1a2b2
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG019090__I1a2a1a
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG019091__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a1
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG106517__I1a2a2
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107384__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107394__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c2b1a1
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107395__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107399__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107403__R1b1a1b1a / R1b / R1b-L51
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107408__I1a2a1a1a2a1~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107410__I1~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107411__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107412__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107413__I1a2a2a
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107415__I2a1b1a2b1a~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107416__I1a2a1a1~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107419__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107422__I2a1b1a2b1a1a1~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107423__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107427__I1a2a1a1d1a~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107429__I1a2a1a1~
DNK_Zealand_LateRoman_IA:CGG107437__I1a2a1a1d1~
DNK_Zealand_LateViking_EMA:CGG107579__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_LateViking_EMA:CGG107580__I2a1a2b1a1a
DNK_Zealand_LN:CGG105332__I1~
DNK_Zealand_LN:CGG106702__I1a2b
DNK_Zealand_LN:CGG106770__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
DNK_Zealand_LN:CGG106838__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2e2
DNK_Zealand_LN:CGG107463__R1a1a1b1a3a~
DNK_Zealand_LN:CGG107464__R1b1a1b1a1
DNK_Zealand_LN:CGG107465__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
DNK_Zealand_Modern:CGG105338__I1 / I1 / I1-M253
DNK_Zealand_PreRoman_IA:CGG019645__I1a2a1a1~
DNK_Zealand_PreRoman_IA:CGG106734__I1a2a1a1a / I1a / I1a-Z140
DNK_Zealand_PreRoman_IA:CGG107512__R1a1a1b1~
DNK_Zealand_PreRoman_IA:CGG107528__I1a2a1~
DNK_Zealand_PreRoman_IA:CGG107535__I1a2a2
DNK_Zealand_PreRomanEarlyRoman_IA:CGG107534__I1a2b3~
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG019442__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a1
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG105327__R1a1a1b1a3a~
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG106796__R1b1a1b1a1a1e
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG106822__I1a~
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG107400__I1a2a1a1a1b
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG107420__I1~
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG107433__R1b1a1b1a1
DNK_Zealand_Roman_IA:CGG107440__G2a2b2a1a1b1
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG019689__R1b1a1b1a1a2a1b1a
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG106823__I1a2a1a1a1a1b~
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG106824__I1~
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG106825__I1a1b1a1d2b~
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG106826__I1a2a1a1~
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG106827__I1a2a2a4a~
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG106832__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2a1b1a1a2
DNK_Zealand_Viking:CGG106833__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a
ENG_Gloucestershire_Roman_IA:CGG020723__R1b1a1b1a1
ENG_Gloucestershire_Roman_IA:CGG020724__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a
ESP_Madrid_Visigoths:CGG022026__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1~
ESP_Madrid_Visigoths:CGG022028__C1
ESP_Madrid_Visigoths:CGG022051__R1b1a1b1a1a2a1a1
ESP_Madrid_Visigoths:CGG022052__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
ESP_Madrid_Visigoths:CGG022053__I1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_BA:CGG023674__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_BA:CGG023710__R1b1a1b1a1a2b2 / R1b / R1b-U152 (Z36)
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_HallstatLaTene/BA_IA:CGG023685__R1b1a1b1a1a2a1a1a3
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023644__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a4
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023647__R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1e
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023660__I2a1a1a1a1a2~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023664__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023678__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023682__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a2a
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023687__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023690__G2a2b2a1a1b1a~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023691__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023692__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023693__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c1b
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023698__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023699__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023702__R1b1a1b1a1a2b / R1b / R1b-U152 (BY3549)
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023704__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a1b1b~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023706__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c1a1a1
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023708__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023709__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023712__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a1b1b~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023713__R1b1a1b1a1a2b / R1b / R1b-U152 (BY3549)
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023714__R1b1a1b1a1a2b2 / R1b / R1b-U152 (Z36)
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023716__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023720__R1b1a1b1a1a2f / R1b / R1b-DF99
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023723__I2a1a1a1a1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023724__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a2
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_LateAntiquity_MA:CGG023656__E1b1b1a1b1a6a~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_LateAntiquity_MA:CGG023657__R1b1a1b1b3a1a1
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_LateAntiquity_MA:CGG023658__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_LateAntiquity_MA:CGG023715__J2a1a1a2b2a2b2~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_LateAntiquity_MA:CGG023722__E1b1b1b2a1a1a1a1f1b1a1
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_LateAntiquity_MA:CGG023725__R1b1a1b / R1b / R1b-M269
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_LaTene_IA:CGG023637__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Vix_Hallstatt_IA:CGG023634__R1b1a1b1a1
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Vix_LaTene_IA:CGG023628__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1~
FRA_Bourgogne_Franche_Compt_Vix_ME_MA:CGG023630__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022417__R1b1a1b1a1a2a / R1b / R1b-DF27
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022418__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 / R1b / R1b-U152 (L2)
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022419__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022421__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022425__I2a1b1a2b1a~
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022426__R1b1a1b1a1a1c / R1b / R1b-U106 (S263)
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022427__R1b1a1b1a1a2c
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022430__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 / R1b / R1b-U152 (L2)
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022431__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022433__R1a1a1b1a2 / R1a / R1a-Z280
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022434__R1b1a1b1a1a2a / R1b / R1b-DF27
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022436__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022438__I2a1b1a2b1a~
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022441__R1b1a1b / R1b / R1b-M269
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022443__I2a1b1a1b~
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022445__R1b1a1b1a1a3a1
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022447__R1b1a1b1 / R1b / R1b-L23
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022451__G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a1b1b~
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022455__R1b1a1b1a2a
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022456__R1b1a1b1a1a1c / R1b / R1b-U106 (S263)
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022457__R1b1a1b1a1a2c1b2a1
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022458__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022463__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022464__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
FRA_Haut_de_France_LaTene_IA:CGG022465__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1a~
GEO_IA:CGG021779__I2a2b~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021897__E1b1b1a1b1a / E1b / E1b-V13
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021899__I2a1b1a1b1a1a~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021908__Q1b1b1~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021909__R1a1a1b~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021912__J1a2a1a2~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021913__R1a1a1b~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021917__Q1b1b1~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021918__E1b1b1b2a1a6d2~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021922__R1a1a1b2a2b2b~
HUN_Sarmatian:CGG021924__J2b2a1 / J2b / J2b-L283
LTU_IA:CGG017685__G2a1a1a1a1a1a1a2a1~
LTU_IA:CGG017690__N1a1a1a1a1a1a
LTU_IA:CGG017691__N1a1a1a1a1a1a
LTU_IA:CGG017694__N1a1a1a1a1a1a
NLD_Frisian_IA:CGG024691__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b2a1b5a2
NLD_Frisian_IA:CGG024692__R1b1a1b / R1b / R1b-M269
NLD_Frisian_IA:CGG024694__I1a2a1a1a2~
NLD_Frisian_IA:CGG024700__J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4c~
NLD_Frisian_IA:CGG024702__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2b
NLD_South-Holland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107763__R1b1a1b1a1a2e1
NLD_South-Holland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG107765__E1b1b1a1b1a / E1b / E1b-V13
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107735__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107745__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107746__R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1k
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107747__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107748__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107750__R1b1a1b1a1a2 / R1b / R1b-P312
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107751__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a2b1
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107752__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1a1~
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107753__J2a1a1b2a1b1b~
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107754__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107756__R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 / R1b / R1b-U152 (L2)
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107757__R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a1
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107758__R1b1a1b1a1a3a1
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107761__R1b1a1b1a1a2e1
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107762__I1a1b1
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107766__R1b1a1b1a1a2b / R1b / R1b-U152 (BY3549)
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107767__R1b1a1b1a1a1c / R1b / R1b-U106 (S263)
NLD_South-Holland_Roman_IA:CGG107768__I2a1b1a1b1a1a~
NOR_Nordland_EarlyGermanic_IA:CGG107030__R1a1a1b1a3a~
NOR_Nordland_EBA:CGG105636__R1a1a1b1a3a2
NOR_Nordland_EBA:CGG105637__R1a1a1b1a3a~
NOR_Nordland_IA:CGG107010__I1a1b1a4a2~
NOR_Nordland_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107016__R1a1a1b1a3a2
NOR_Nordland_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107023__R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a
NOR_Nordland_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107037__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
NOR_Nordland_LateRoman_IA:CGG107021__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Nordland_Roman_IA:CGG107015__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a
NOR_Nordland_Roman_IA:CGG107022__R1a1a1b1a3a1a~
NOR_Rogaland_EarlyGermanic_IA:CGG107042__I1a~
NOR_Rogaland_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107039__R1a1a1b1a3a1a~
NOR_Rogaland_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107040__R1a1a1b1a3a~
NOR_Rogaland_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107041__I2a1b1~
NOR_Sogn_and_Fjordane_IA:CGG107005__R1a1a1b1a3a1a
NOR_Sogn_and_Fjordane_IA:CGG107006__R1a1a1b1a3a~
NOR_Sogn_and_Fjordane_IA:CGG107007__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a
NOR_Sogn_and_Fjordane_IA:CGG107009__R1a1a1b1a3a~
NOR_Sogn_and_Fjordane_Roman_IA:CGG107004__R1a1a1b1a3a3~
NOR_Troms_IA:CGG107012__I1~
NOR_Troms_IA:CGG107017__R1a1a1b1a3a2b2b~
NOR_Troms_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107011__R1a1a1b1a3a2a1
NOR_Troms_LateGermanic_IA:CGG107013__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
NOR_Trøndelag:CGG105645_CGG105646__I1a2a1a1~
NOR_Trøndelag_BellBeaker:CGG105916__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_BellBeaker:CGG105917__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_BellBeaker:CGG105918__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_EarlyGermanic_IA:CGG107036__I1~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105602__R1a1a1b~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105603__R1a1a~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105605__R1a1a1b1a / R1a / R1a-Z282
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105610__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105614__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105615__R1a1a1b1a / R1a / R1a-Z282
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105622__R1a1a1b~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105623__R1a1a1b~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105626__R1a1a1b~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105631__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105632__R1a1a1b~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG105645__I1a2a1a1d2~
NOR_Trøndelag_EBA:CGG107019__R1a1a1b1a3a~
NOR_Trøndelag_Late_IA:CGG107024__R1a1a1b1a3a2b2~
NOR_Trøndelag_LN:CGG105608__R1a1a1b1~
NOR_Trøndelag_LN:CGG105612__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_LN:CGG105628__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_LN:CGG105650__I1a2a
NOR_Trøndelag_LNEBA:CGG105604__R1a1a1b1a3~
NOR_Trøndelag_Roman_IA:CGG107035__I1~
PRT_Estremadura_Visigothic:CGG018558__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
PRT_Estremadura_Visigothic:CGG018559__J1a2a1a2d~
RUS_Alan_IA:CGG021451__R1b1a1b1b / R1b / R1b-Z2103
RUS_Boyasky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021459__N1a1a1a1a
RUS_Boyasky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021460__N1a1a1a1a
RUS_Boyasky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021461__N1a1a1a1a2
RUS_Dubrovsky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021462__N1a1a1a1a2
RUS_Dubrovsky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021464__R1a1a1b2a2~
RUS_Kabardino-Balkaria_Alan:CGG021996__G2a1a1a1a1b
RUS_Kabardino-Balkaria_Alan:CGG022002__G2a1a1a1a1a1a1b~
RUS_Kabardino-Balkaria_Alan:CGG022003__R1b1a1b1b / R1b / R1b-Z2103
RUS_Kabardino-Balkaria_Alan:CGG022004__J2a1a1a2a2a
RUS_Kabardino-Balkaria_Alan:CGG022005__R1b1a1b1b / R1b / R1b-Z2103
RUS_Tuva_Hun_IA:CGG021500__R1a1a1b2a1a2b1~
RUS_Tuva_Saka_IA:CGG021495__R1b1a1b / R1b / R1b-M269
RUS_Tuva_Saka_IA:CGG021496__R1a1a1b2a / R1a / R1a-Z94
SCO_Orkney_IA:CGG018915__R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a4b2
SVK_Roman_IA:CGG021931__R1b1a1b1a1
SVK_Roman_IA:CGG021935__E1b1b1a1b1a / E1b / E1b-V13
SVK_Slav_Avars_MA:CGG018920__E1b1b1a1b1a / E1b / E1b-V13
SVK_Slav_Avars_MA:CGG018923__E1b1b1a1b1a1~
SWE_Falbygden_IA:CGG105989__I1a1b1g~
SWE_Oland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG024145__I1a~
SWE_Oland_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG024147__N1a1a1a1a1a1a1b
SWE_Skåne_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG105925__I1~
SWE_Skåne_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG105926__I1a1b1f~
SWE_Skåne_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG105928__R1b1a1b1a1a1b1a
SWE_Skåne_EarlyRoman_IA:CGG105930__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
SWE_Skåne_LN:CGG105923__R1b1a1b1a1a1b / R1b / R1b-U106 (Z19)
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105932__I1a2a1a1d1~
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105933__I1a2a1a1~
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105934__E1b1b1b2a1a6d2~
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105935__I1a2a1a1d1~
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105936__I1a1b1b1~
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105937__I1a1b1b1a~
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105938__R1b1a1b1a1a1c2a1~
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105939__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
SWE_Skåne_Roman_IA:CGG105940__R1b1a1b1a1a / R1b / R1b-L11
Thanks for the list - This one stands out as well first U106 in Halstatt? AUT_Gmunden_Hallstatt_IA:CGG101214__R1b1a1b1a1a1 / R1b / R1b-U106. Cheers!
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - alanarchae - 03-18-2024
(03-18-2024, 03:47 PM)Rodoorn Wrote: According to the paper the East North Sea (ESN) genetic cluster is Bell Beaker derived.
ESN= NW block speakers!?
ESN/NW Block
yellow and blue area with regard to West Dutch/ and NE Dutch/ NW German Bell Beakers, according to archeologist Lanting (2007/2008):
same area in BA times, based on knives distribution by Butler, Arnoldussen and Steegstra:
I guess this is core NW Block.
As fare as I know Kuhn but also other linguists made a link between NW block with (Italo-)Celtic.....r survived
As there was likely a dominant bell beaker element in that area of the north sea I think it’s virtually a certainty that NW Block was a subset of Italo-Celtic as pretty well every other area dominated by bell beaker descendants who spoke IE are associated with that branch of IE. The group was rather peripheral to the big networks like Atlantic to the west, Nordic to the east and c Europe to the south. So it’s perhaps a local dialect which may have survived being replaced by bigger network dialects. Kind of like the way Lusitanian likely survived in Iberia because it spent a great deal of the post beaker era ‘out of then loop’. Ive always found the NW Block theory quite attractive and now a population that lasted untouched from beaker to the AD era has been found in the area it’s even more attractive.
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Jaska - 03-19-2024
Alanarchae:
Quote:As there was likely a dominant bell beaker element in that area of the north sea I think it’s virtually a certainty that NW Block was a subset of Italo-Celtic as pretty well every other area dominated by bell beaker descendants who spoke IE are associated with that branch of IE. The group was rather peripheral to the big networks like Atlantic to the west, Nordic to the east and c Europe to the south. So it’s perhaps a local dialect which may have survived being replaced by bigger network dialects. Kind of like the way Lusitanian likely survived in Iberia because it spent a great deal of the post beaker era ‘out of then loop’. Ive always found the NW Block theory quite attractive and now a population that lasted untouched from beaker to the AD era has been found in the area it’s even more attractive.
Virtually a certainty? Far from it. Dominant or majority ancestry cannot tell anything about the language: it is common that neighboring populations share the same dominant ancestry, yet they still often speak only distant or even unrelated languages.
When two populations admix, there are also other things than just numbers or majority ancestry to be taken into consideration. Language shift and expansion is a sociological phenomenon, not genetic. Language cannot be seen from the DNA, because language is not inherited in DNA.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=503
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - old europe - 03-19-2024
(03-19-2024, 06:43 AM)Jaska Wrote: Alanarchae:
Quote:As there was likely a dominant bell beaker element in that area of the north sea I think it’s virtually a certainty that NW Block was a subset of Italo-Celtic as pretty well every other area dominated by bell beaker descendants who spoke IE are associated with that branch of IE. The group was rather peripheral to the big networks like Atlantic to the west, Nordic to the east and c Europe to the south. So it’s perhaps a local dialect which may have survived being replaced by bigger network dialects. Kind of like the way Lusitanian likely survived in Iberia because it spent a great deal of the post beaker era ‘out of then loop’. Ive always found the NW Block theory quite attractive and now a population that lasted untouched from beaker to the AD era has been found in the area it’s even more attractive.
Virtually a certainty? Far from it. Dominant or majority ancestry cannot tell anything about the language: it is common that neighboring populations share the same dominant ancestry, yet they still often speak only distant or even unrelated languages.
When two populations admix, there are also other things than just numbers or majority ancestry to be taken into consideration. Language shift and expansion is a sociological phenomenon, not genetic. Language cannot be seen from the DNA, because language is not inherited in DNA.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=503
what you say is only partially true. It is much more evident in today society and even in ancient ones when you can see the birth of administrative-centralized states. Typical example, but not the only one of course, is the latinazation of western europe that happened without much demographic and/or genetic changes.
In the distant past of course sociological/linguistic changes were more on a one to one relationship with demographic/ genetics changes because these changes are brought up by human beings and human beings have dna
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Jaska - 03-19-2024
(03-19-2024, 06:50 AM)old europe Wrote: (03-19-2024, 06:43 AM)Jaska Wrote: Alanarchae:
Quote:As there was likely a dominant bell beaker element in that area of the north sea I think it’s virtually a certainty that NW Block was a subset of Italo-Celtic as pretty well every other area dominated by bell beaker descendants who spoke IE are associated with that branch of IE. The group was rather peripheral to the big networks like Atlantic to the west, Nordic to the east and c Europe to the south. So it’s perhaps a local dialect which may have survived being replaced by bigger network dialects. Kind of like the way Lusitanian likely survived in Iberia because it spent a great deal of the post beaker era ‘out of then loop’. Ive always found the NW Block theory quite attractive and now a population that lasted untouched from beaker to the AD era has been found in the area it’s even more attractive.
Virtually a certainty? Far from it. Dominant or majority ancestry cannot tell anything about the language: it is common that neighboring populations share the same dominant ancestry, yet they still often speak only distant or even unrelated languages.
When two populations admix, there are also other things than just numbers or majority ancestry to be taken into consideration. Language shift and expansion is a sociological phenomenon, not genetic. Language cannot be seen from the DNA, because language is not inherited in DNA.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=503
what you say is only partially true. It is much more evident in today society and even in ancient ones when you can see the birth of administrative-centralized states. Typical example, but not the only one of course, is the latinazation of western europe that happened without much demographic and/or genetic changes.
In the distant past of course sociological/linguistic changes were more on a one to one relationship with demographic/ genetics changes because these changes are brought up by human beings and human beings have dna
What part is not true in what I wrote? Or did you mean it is only part of the whole truth?
Your point agrees well with what I wrote about language. It cannot make any more credible the option that the Nordwestblock language was Italo-Celtic.
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Rodoorn - 03-19-2024
(03-19-2024, 06:43 AM)Jaska Wrote: Alanarchae:
Quote:As there was likely a dominant bell beaker element in that area of the north sea I think it’s virtually a certainty that NW Block was a subset of Italo-Celtic as pretty well every other area dominated by bell beaker descendants who spoke IE are associated with that branch of IE. The group was rather peripheral to the big networks like Atlantic to the west, Nordic to the east and c Europe to the south. So it’s perhaps a local dialect which may have survived being replaced by bigger network dialects. Kind of like the way Lusitanian likely survived in Iberia because it spent a great deal of the post beaker era ‘out of then loop’. Ive always found the NW Block theory quite attractive and now a population that lasted untouched from beaker to the AD era has been found in the area it’s even more attractive.
Virtually a certainty? Far from it. Dominant or majority ancestry cannot tell anything about the language: it is common that neighboring populations share the same dominant ancestry, yet they still often speak only distant or even unrelated languages.
When two populations admix, there are also other things than just numbers or majority ancestry to be taken into consideration. Language shift and expansion is a sociological phenomenon, not genetic. Language cannot be seen from the DNA, because language is not inherited in DNA.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=503
As fare as these things can be certain: yes.
The reason: we got here the core of the Bell Beakers in NW Europe. From these area there was a spread, most known to the Isles.
And as archeological can be shown settlements (I mentioned Eelde before) can be traced back to the BB and were left with the incoming Germanics about 400 AD. That's a serious continuity in population.
The people of the NW Block- and these area- was (still is) an interface in NW Europe. It would be difficult to share them unisono in between the proto-Germanic lineage.
From linguistic side see Kuhn (1962)- still a magnificent title: people between Germanics and Celtics-, see Schrijver (2017), see Kuzmenko:
PS The passage at stake:
"In the Netherlands, IA Southern Scandinavians’ ancestry became dominant in the place of a distinct Eastern North Sea population. The linguistic affiliation of this population is unknown. According to the linguistic ‘Nordwestblock’ hypothesis, the Netherlands may have harboured a language distinct from both Celtic and Germanic80. Given that ENS is a Bell Beaker subcluster, which is associated with Celtic languages in Britain and France, our results can alternatively be brought in line with theories of Celtic speakers, perhaps including the Frisii of the Roman Period, inhabiting the Dutch North Sea coast during the Early Iron Age 81. "
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Jaska - 03-19-2024
Rodoorn, there is no region in Europe where archaeological continuity has not been used to claim linguistic continuity. However, this method produces contradicting results, making the method totally unreliable. The fact remains that archaeological (or genetic) continuity cannot testify for linguistic continuity.
https://www.alkuperasivusto.fi/Uralic.html
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Rodoorn - 03-19-2024
(03-19-2024, 01:07 PM)Jaska Wrote: Rodoorn, there is no region in Europe where archaeological continuity has not been used to claim linguistic continuity. However, this method produces contradicting results, making the method totally unreliable. The fact remains that archaeological (or genetic) continuity cannot testify for linguistic continuity.
https://www.alkuperasivusto.fi/Uralic.html
Well the fact that certain claims have been made more often doesn't mean that this claim is not accurat. Because it is quit obvious, from BB times (2400 BC) unto migration times (400 AD) the population knew a great continuity and the fundament of it (in that specific area = outmost NW continental Europe) was Bell Beaker and nothing else. But correct me if I'm wrong.
There are also been more claims about what the people of what in the paper has been called Eastern North Sea population- the paper claims that is was "distinctive" and also "BB related"- would have been spoken.
The only certainty from linguistic perspective with regard to the Dutch/NW German area we have is that with "In the Netherlands, IA Southern Scandinavians’ ancestry became dominant in the place of a distinct Eastern North Sea population." that this is contemporary with the occurance of kind of Germanic!
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - poilus - 03-19-2024
GBVPK Bell Beaker, Narbonne, South-France, 3890 C14 BP
from Seguin-Orlando's Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France formely known as the oldest DF27 relabelled R-L21.
S2 clustered ancient samples row 1613
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2024/03/14/2024.03.13.584607/DC4/embed/media-4.xlsx?download=true
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - NewEnglander - 03-19-2024
Excited to see so much R-Z18 in this study. I wonder when they will release the data. It's particularly interesting to see a good amount of R-Z18 in the far north of Norway, especially since prior to this study the oldest R-Z372 sample was up there as well.
I hope future studies have far more Swedish samples. R-Z18 seems particularly oriented towards Sweden in modern times, so I'm wondering how early they had a significant presence there.
RE: Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages - Awood - 03-19-2024
(03-19-2024, 05:05 PM)NewEnglander Wrote: Excited to see so much R-Z18 in this study. I wonder when they will release the data. It's particularly interesting to see a good amount of R-Z18 in the far north of Norway, especially since prior to this study the oldest R-Z372 sample was up there as well.
I hope future studies have far more Swedish samples. R-Z18 seems particularly oriented towards Sweden in modern times, so I'm wondering how early they had a significant presence there.
Looks like it spread there with the East Scandinavian and/or South Scandinavian ancestry. R-U106, R-L11, and maybe R-L238. The paper indicates the West Scandinavian ancestry didn't really move much once it arrived in Norway, and that is most strongly linked with R1a.
The P312+ branches are most likely more modern or related to ESE movements from Jutland.
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