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J2b-L283
He has put Dardanians under J-Z631

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/
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And maybe not ''originated there'' but he himself claims it was mostly located there in that area of the Balkans based on it's frequency today
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(07-04-2024, 02:03 PM)jspy Wrote: So can we say some of these tribes on the adriatic coast would be J-PH4679?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abroi

If you're asking whether it is likely that PH4679 was present among them, I think that it is quite possible because PH4679 seems to have had a more southern distribution than Cetina and IMO it's equally possible that Dardanians will fall under PH4679 as well. 

Phylogeographer has argued that J-Z1043 is more likely for Dardanians, but I think that we might find different clades within the same tribal grouping.

A lineage which is a bit overlooked is J-CTS11100 , which has been found in IA Albania and Roman Viminacium. It includes among others the Hoti tribe.
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How do those Swiss J2B2-L283s compare to Albanians and Italians autosomally and in terms of Y-DNA deep clades?
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(07-04-2024, 07:40 PM)Pribislav Wrote:
(07-04-2024, 02:03 PM)jspy Wrote: So can we say J-PH4679 possibly originated from some these tribes on the adriatic coast ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abroi

How can a subclade with a Bronze Age MRCA originate from Late Iron Age tribes?

It's obvious to everyone in the thread that he means PH4679+ which would include IA descendant clades of said nomenclature designating their Proto-Illyrian Bronze Age ancestor. PH4679+ IA clades are very likely to be found within mentioned Illyrian tribes and therefore have such an origin. It is what it is Wink
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(07-04-2024, 07:48 PM)jspy Wrote: I wrote my question a bit wrong so I rephrased it.
No, not at all. Nothing factually wrong about what you said and meant.
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(07-05-2024, 12:41 AM)targaryen Wrote: How do those Swiss J2B2-L283s compare to Albanians and Italians autosomally and in terms of Y-DNA deep clades?

You can look at the map here https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid...016822&z=7

The Swiss sample is from  346-53 BCE (200 BCE)

It is classified as  J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602

If that's what you mean.
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(07-01-2024, 09:12 PM)Polska Wrote: Facial reconstruction of an ancient J2b L283 Cetina sample (I18746) from the Rudine Tumulus, Cetina River Valley in Croatia:


Localite RUDINA, tumulus XIX, grave 4 - remains of a very robust male skeleton up to 45 years old. The right half of his skull has been preserved, so that in its entirety it shows a typical anthropo-typological and morphological profile (T. I). It is long and well-built, tall, with very strong relief of the face. The nearby ports are very developed, below which are located the square and sharp double ones and the very high and deep root of the nose. Fossa canina is present on the preserved half. Both jaws are massively built; the mandible has a strong ramus and angules. The face as a whole is medium wide, but highly modeled. The whole is low and rounded. The cranial vault and the back of the head are also rounded
and correspond to the curvooccipital form. The occipital part is raised and attached to quite a tilted cranial base. The mastoid processes are short and massive and project below the base of the skull. - Observed anthropotypologically, the enumerated characteristics would identify this skull as a Paleo-Mediterranean anthropological type.

Quote:Anthropological sex: male.
Molecular sex: male, with an unusual Y-haplogroup J2b2a1 (J-L283).
Biological age at death: about 30 years (young adult).
Pathologies: supragingival calculus; active porotic hyperostosis (cribra cranii).

The skeleton is very robust, with extremely pronounced muscle insertions, with extensive enthesopathic changes on the humerus and femurs. The individual exhibits a very large skeletal stature, at least 181 cm.

Traumas: a perimortem fracture in the middle third of the right clavicle.

These descriptions are similar to physical anthropology descriptions of Yamnaya burials from Vojvodina, northern Serbia (not far from the location of Mokrin J-L283, 1950 BCE):

Bioarchaeology of Yamnaya skeletons from Vojvodina (CROSBI ID 71378)

Quote:The paper presents the results of conventional bioarchaeological analysis (sex, age, height, pathology) of human skeletal remains from four archaeological sites from Vojvodina associated with the Eneolithic/Early Bronze Age Yamnaya culture (five adult skeletons in total). The reconstructed height of two males is similar to the recorded stature of other Yamnaya individuals from Europe suggesting that the members of this population were tall and robust individuals. Paleodontological analysis indicates a diet with a large intake of animal protein, which is in accordance with the available isotopic data from other Yamnaya sites. The presence of various vertebral pathologies (Schmorl’s nodes and osteoarthritis) could indicate prolonged activity-related stress caused by heavy labour. Finally, the presence of a healed blunt-force trauma suggests the occurrence of occasional episodes of intentional violence.
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(07-08-2024, 09:25 PM)corrigendum Wrote:
(07-01-2024, 09:12 PM)Polska Wrote: Facial reconstruction of an ancient J2b L283 Cetina sample (I18746) from the Rudine Tumulus, Cetina River Valley in Croatia:


Localite RUDINA, tumulus XIX, grave 4 - remains of a very robust male skeleton up to 45 years old. The right half of his skull has been preserved, so that in its entirety it shows a typical anthropo-typological and morphological profile (T. I). It is long and well-built, tall, with very strong relief of the face. The nearby ports are very developed, below which are located the square and sharp double ones and the very high and deep root of the nose. Fossa canina is present on the preserved half. Both jaws are massively built; the mandible has a strong ramus and angules. The face as a whole is medium wide, but highly modeled. The whole is low and rounded. The cranial vault and the back of the head are also rounded
and correspond to the curvooccipital form. The occipital part is raised and attached to quite a tilted cranial base. The mastoid processes are short and massive and project below the base of the skull. - Observed anthropotypologically, the enumerated characteristics would identify this skull as a Paleo-Mediterranean anthropological type.

Quote:Anthropological sex: male.
Molecular sex: male, with an unusual Y-haplogroup J2b2a1 (J-L283).
Biological age at death: about 30 years (young adult).
Pathologies: supragingival calculus; active porotic hyperostosis (cribra cranii).

The skeleton is very robust, with extremely pronounced muscle insertions, with extensive enthesopathic changes on the humerus and femurs. The individual exhibits a very large skeletal stature, at least 181 cm.

Traumas: a perimortem fracture in the middle third of the right clavicle.

These descriptions are similar to physical anthropology descriptions of Yamnaya burials from Vojvodina, northern Serbia (not far from the location of Mokrin J-L283, 1950 BCE):

Bioarchaeology of Yamnaya skeletons from Vojvodina (CROSBI ID 71378)

Quote:The paper presents the results of conventional bioarchaeological analysis (sex, age, height, pathology) of human skeletal remains from four archaeological sites from Vojvodina associated with the Eneolithic/Early Bronze Age Yamnaya culture (five adult skeletons in total). The reconstructed height of two males is similar to the recorded stature of other Yamnaya individuals from Europe suggesting that the members of this population were tall and robust individuals. Paleodontological analysis indicates a diet with a large intake of animal protein, which is in accordance with the available isotopic data from other Yamnaya sites. The presence of various vertebral pathologies (Schmorl’s nodes and osteoarthritis) could indicate prolonged activity-related stress caused by heavy labour. Finally, the presence of a healed blunt-force trauma suggests the occurrence of occasional episodes of intentional violence.

Great find.  The description of Vojvodina is VERY similar to the Crihana Veche sample.  Thanks for the link.
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(07-01-2024, 09:12 PM)Polska Wrote: Facial reconstruction of an ancient J2b L283 Cetina sample (I18746) from the Rudine Tumulus, Cetina River Valley in Croatia:






Translation:

Localite RUDINA, tumulus XIX, grave 4 - remains of a very robust male skeleton up to 45 years old. The right half of his skull has been preserved, so that in its entirety it shows a typical anthropo-typological and morphological profile (T. I). It is long and well-built, tall, with very strong relief of the face. The nearby ports are very developed, below which are located the square and sharp double ones and the very high and deep root of the nose. Fossa canina is present on the preserved half. Both jaws are massively built; the mandible has a strong ramus and angules. The face as a whole is medium wide, but highly modeled. The whole is low and rounded. The cranial vault and the back of the head are also rounded
and correspond to the curvooccipital form. The occipital part is raised and attached to quite a tilted cranial base. The mastoid processes are short and massive and project below the base of the skull. - Observed anthropotypologically, the enumerated characteristics would identify this skull as a Paleo-Mediterranean anthropological type.

A quarter of males in Kukes, Albania have exactly this face.
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(07-09-2024, 11:30 AM)Sephesakueu Wrote: Funnily this anthropomorphic type is nowadays most common in west europe mainly in its areas
that are both strongly dolicocephalic and hold higher degrees of kurganoid ancestry(therefore have more robust types). Paradoxically the areas with stronger ancestral ties with the illyrians have the highest frequencies of brachycephaly. Goes to show how little looks actually correlate with ancestry.

So, which one is it?
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In the areas of the Balkans today with Illyrian ancestry there is also other ancestry involved. But there is a lot of reduced Cromagnoid/Alpine and Cromagnoid and some people are still tall and/or robust. So you still find these characteristics, but only mixed with other elements to some degree.
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