J2b-L283

[corrigendum]

I looked at about five samples from the (upcoming) study "Geographic origin, ancestry, and death circumstances at the Cornaux/Les Sauges Iron Age bridge, Switzerland".

At least four of them are under R1b-L51, however, sample COR-8/3432 dating to the Late Iron Age (ca. 450-1 BCE) is J2b-L283>>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602.

As we can see in the aDNA map, the oldest J-Z38240 samples, which also lived not far from its TMRCA, come from the Cetina culture of Croatia, including a J-Z3824>Z38241. Additionally, the oldest PH1602+ samples come from Croatia, not far from the Adriatic coast. And so we have good evidence of local continuity for J-PH1602 in northwestern Balkans.

This is the third Iron Age J2b-L283 sample which has appeared north of the Balkans. Two of them are confirmed J-Z38240+, likely the third one as well since he is Z1297-. Not surprising IMO, considering that out of its main branches, J-Z38240 has a northwestern Balkans distribution, while J-Z638 more southwestern.

COR-7 and COR-8 are the same individual:

Since genetic analyses revealed that samples COR-7 and COR-8 (respectively right and left pars petrosa) pertain to the same individual (see section Paleogenetic Analyses), we excluded the right pars petrosa COR-7 from the carbon, nitrogen, sulfur, and 14C analyses, thus reducing this dataset to 19 individuals.

  


COR-7/8 dates from the 4th century BCE to the 1st century CE.

PH1602 is a common Cetina-derived clade and it once more shows how far and wide Cetina traveled, although based on the date I think that this individual's ancestor got there from Slovenia or an adjacent area, not directly from Dalmatia itself.

[Trojet]

PH1602 is a common Cetina-derived clade and it once more shows how far and wide Cetina traveled, although based on the date I think that this individual's ancestor got there from Slovenia or an adjacent area, not directly from Dalmatia itself.

Absolutely. Noteworthy, we have an older J-PH1602 at the opposite end, in North Africa (R11751, ~570 BCE), than COR-8.

[corrigendum]

PH1602 is a common Cetina-derived clade and it once more shows how far and wide Cetina traveled, although based on the date I think that this individual's ancestor got there from Slovenia or an adjacent area, not directly from Dalmatia itself.

Absolutely. Noteworthy, we have an older J-PH1602 at the opposite end, in North Africa (R11751, ~570 BCE), than COR-8.

It's incredible how Cetina played a major role in the formation of trade and power networks during the BA in the Balkans, the central Mediterranean and its descendant groups reached as far north as the Alps, but in Yugoslav archaeology it's rarely mentioned.

Only in the past 15-20 years has literature about Cetina began to fully explore its history and expansion.

[Sephesakueu]

Just another celt with J2b-L283 and no recent apearent cetina/HRV IA ancestry , many more to come. Meanwhile Hunter Provyn is printing mugs and calendars to see if his legionare ancestor come closer to materializing.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/image...26Zsu&s=10

[corrigendum]

Just another celt with J2b-L283 and no recent cetina like ancestry detectable, many more to come. Meanwhile Hunter Provyn is printing mugs and calendars to see if his legionare ancestor come closer to materealising.

It's clear that the clade comes from the IA Balkans and as Trojet said he comes from a later period than PH1602 from Tunisia. This clade (PH1602) has the largest geographical expansion compared to all J-L283 clades during the IA and it's a very good indicator of Cetina culture/Illyrian movements in all directions. Nobody has ever disputed that there are such movements and we've been able to observe them as far south as the Tunisian coast, but in themselves they don't change the fact that much of J-L283 north of the Balkans dates from the Roman period onward. If this wasn't the case, we'd find more than 3 J-L283 in all of central/western/northern Europe in over 400-500 samples from Slovakia to Britain before the Roman era.

Rather than trying to connect J-L283 to populations which didn't carry it, it's better to assess how some Illyrian groups manage to move far and wide and have a lasting impact just before the Roman era.

[Riverman]

Rather than trying to connect J-L283 to populations which didn't carry it, it's better to assess how some Illyrian groups manage to move far and wide and have a lasting impact just before the Roman era.

In the same way the Daco-Thracian E-V13 was spread, when the actual La Tene Celts conquered Eastern Hallstatt plus a couple of Scythian, Dacian and Illyrian people. Apparently, they didn't eliminate the locals everywhere, and there was quite some backflow from the Eastern fringe to the centre.
Pretty similar to the Romans, Germanics, Slavs and Vikings later. During their conquests, they created networks through which people they had conquered moved back to their original homelands.
Most of the current sampling is from specific places of the Celtic world, the Eastern remains rather undersampled overall, and its from these Eastern Hallstatt to Illyrian/Daco-Thracian people, most of the backflow will come from.

[corrigendum]

It's clear that the clade comes from the IA Balkans and as Trojet said he comes from a later period than PH1602 from Tunisia. This clade (PH1602) has the largest geographical expansion compared to all J-L283 clades during the IA and it's a very good indicator of Cetina culture/Illyrian movements in all directions. Nobody has ever disputed that there are such movements and we've been able to observe them as far south as the Tunisian coast, but in themselves they don't change the fact that much of J-L283 north of the Balkans dates from the Roman period onward. If this wasn't the case, we'd find more than 3 J-L283 in all of central/western/northern Europe in over 400-500 samples from Slovakia to Britain before the Roman era.

Rather than trying to connect J-L283 to populations which didn't carry it, it's better to assess how some Illyrian groups manage to move far and wide and have a lasting impact just before the Roman era.

His ancestor or he himself might actually come from Slovenia or northern Croatia:

Geographic range of profiles and Y-DNA tags per sample:

[Polska]

May or may not be relevant to the discovery of any new ancient J2b L283 samples, but there is now a link over at ENA for this new study out of Max Planck re: the Caucasus titled “The Rise and Transformation of Bronze Age Pastoralists in the Caucasus”.  No public data yet.


https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB73987

[corrigendum]

May or may not be relevant to the discovery of any new ancient J2b L283 samples, but there is now a link over at ENA for this new study out of Max Planck re: the Caucasus titled “The Rise and Transformation of Bronze Age Pastoralists in the Caucasus”.  No public data yet.


https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB73987

Moving a post:

Bioarchaeology of Innovations – The 4th/3rd Millennium BC in the Caucasus and Beyond
Sabine Reinhold, Wolfgang Haak, Ayshin Ghalichi, and Christina Warinner:
https://www.transformeurope2budapest2024...-programme
https://www.youtube.com/@hunrenbolcsesze...ny/streams
New article in preparation, they also have samples from Nalchik. 

[jspy]

J-PH4679 is an Albanian dominated branch https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/ , very much doubt it was introduced during the Roman period or of Etruscan origin. Actually the Etruscan samples simply might belong to some kind of other clade that split during the Iron Age or some time and the movement most likely occurred Western Balkans > Italy , of course the opposite is possible too but less likely, and even less likely for the Roman period.... J-PH4679 is also a descendant of https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/ J-Z638 which among Illyrians was a major branch

[Polska]

Facial reconstruction of an ancient J2b L283 Cetina sample (I18746) from the Rudine Tumulus, Cetina River Valley in Croatia:

   
   
   
   

Translation:

Localite RUDINA, tumulus XIX, grave 4 - remains of a very robust male skeleton up to 45 years old. The right half of his skull has been preserved, so that in its entirety it shows a typical anthropo-typological and morphological profile (T. I). It is long and well-built, tall, with very strong relief of the face. The nearby ports are very developed, below which are located the square and sharp double ones and the very high and deep root of the nose. Fossa canina is present on the preserved half. Both jaws are massively built; the mandible has a strong ramus and angules. The face as a whole is medium wide, but highly modeled. The whole is low and rounded. The cranial vault and the back of the head are also rounded
and correspond to the curvooccipital form. The occipital part is raised and attached to quite a tilted cranial base. The mastoid processes are short and massive and project below the base of the skull. - Observed anthropotypologically, the enumerated characteristics would identify this skull as a Paleo-Mediterranean anthropological type.

[jspy]

So can we say some of these tribes on the adriatic coast would be J-PH4679?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abroi

[Pribislav]

So can we say J-PH4679 possibly originated from some these tribes on the adriatic coast ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abroi

How can a subclade with a Bronze Age MRCA originate from Late Iron Age tribes?

[jspy]

So can we say J-PH4679 possibly originated from some these tribes on the adriatic coast ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abroi

How can a subclade with a Bronze Age MRCA originate from Late Iron Age tribes?

Why are you asking me ? Phylogeographer has put it somewhere there:




If that is true then it would mean these tribes would fall under there. But no, it wouldn't ''originate from them'' but they would fall under there somewhere ? I wrote my question a bit wrong so I rephrased it.

[jspy]

I rephrased my question above: Can we say those tribes would fall under J-PH4679 ?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/

It is entirely dominated by Albanians. Also proto-Illyrians were in the Balkans since the Bronze Age and it is entirely dominated by Albanians so how do you know it did not originate there ? lol But yeah I asked my question a bit wrong, thanks for pointing it out, genius... but since I saw Albanians mostly there I did not think much about what I wrote.... also tired, long day..... ''Do these tribes fall under J-PH4679'' , Happy now ?