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Sephardic Jews DNA results
#31
"One estimate gives a Spanish Jewish population of 400,000 by the time of the expulsions of the late fifteenth century, during which some 160,000 Spanish Jews were expelled, largely settling around the Mediterranean, while the remainder underwent conversion to Christianity, living as so-called conversos (in Spain) or cristãos novos (in Portugal)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...MTZieXRlcw
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#32
What this article does not take into account are the Jewish converts who returned to the Iberian Peninsula after the general expulsion of 1492.

According to Joseph Pérez, the total number of converts finally expelled, after the return of someof them, would be around 50,000.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this particular paragraph summarize very well what I mean.


The number of Jews expelled remains a matter of controversy. The figures have ranged between 45,000 and 350,000, although the most recent investigations, according to Joseph Pérez, place it at around 50,000, taking into account the thousands of Jews who, after leaving, returned due to the mistreatment they suffered in some reception places, such as Fez, Morocco.[67] Julio Valdeón, also citing the latest research, places the figure between 70,000 and 100,000, of which between 50,000 and 80,000 would come from the Crown of Castile, although in These numbers do not count those returned.[67]

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi%...spa%C3%B1a

Other paragraph of Joseph Pérez’s book (Los judíos en España):

“All expenses were borne by those expelled: travel, maintenance, boat freight, rights of passage... They contracted ships at very high prices whose owners later did not fulfill the contract; Other bosses murdered those they were carrying to steal the little they owned. How many Jews left Spain then? The evaluations that have been given vary between 40,000 and 350,000; Bernáldez speaks of 170,000. The most recent works, based on reliable sources, give a total of less than 50,000, taking into account those who returned.
There was a proportion that is difficult to specify. Luis Suárez Fernández has been able to give a list of 177 names, generally heads of families, which implies that the number of individuals is higher. Many of those who had gone to Fez, in view of the poor treatment they were given, preferred to return to Spain and asked the governor of Asilah to baptize them.”

The book is written in spanish. I don’t know if there is an english version.
Rodoorn and Traveler like this post
23andMe: 98.8% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.9% Trace Ancestry (0.4% Coptic Egypcian, 0.3% Nigerian, 0.2% Bengali & Northeast Indian).

My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish Scottish and Welsh.

The truth doesn’t become more authentic because whole world agrees with it.RaMBaM

-M. De la Torre, converse of jew-
-D. de Castilla, converse of moor-
-M. de Navas, converse of moor-
Reply
#33
(05-28-2024, 12:58 PM)Rober_tce Wrote: What this article does not take into account are the Jewish converts who returned to the Iberian Peninsula after the general expulsion of 1492.

According to Joseph Pérez, the total number of converts finally expelled, after the return of someof them, would be around 50,000.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this particular paragraph summarize very well what I mean.


The number of Jews expelled remains a matter of controversy. The figures have ranged between 45,000 and 350,000, although the most recent investigations, according to Joseph Pérez, place it at around 50,000, taking into account the thousands of Jews who, after leaving, returned due to the mistreatment they suffered in some reception places, such as Fez, Morocco.[67] Julio Valdeón, also citing the latest research, places the figure between 70,000 and 100,000, of which between 50,000 and 80,000 would come from the Crown of Castile, although in These numbers do not count those returned.[67]

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi%...spa%C3%B1a

Other paragraph of Joseph Pérez’s book (Los judíos en España):

“All expenses were borne by those expelled: travel, maintenance, boat freight, rights of passage... They contracted ships at very high prices whose owners later did not fulfill the contract; Other bosses murdered those they were carrying to steal the little they owned. How many Jews left Spain then? The evaluations that have been given vary between 40,000 and 350,000; Bernáldez speaks of 170,000. The most recent works, based on reliable sources, give a total of less than 50,000, taking into account those who returned.
There was a proportion that is difficult to specify. Luis Suárez Fernández has been able to give a list of 177 names, generally heads of families, which implies that the number of individuals is higher. Many of those who had gone to Fez, in view of the poor treatment they were given, preferred to return to Spain and asked the governor of Asilah to baptize them.”

The book is written in spanish. I don’t know if there is an english version.

Sharp thanks!

Nice add to the paper.

Nevertheless this paper shows something different:

[Image: temp-Imagel-GYURv.avif]

Share of Sephardim (conversos) in the current population, Asturias peaks enormously and E-V22 (with 4.44% next to Sicily) also peaks: the highest in Europe. No coincidence imho.
Rober_tce likes this post
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#34
[Image: temp-Image-G5i8hh.avif]


A closer analysis of my father's autosomal DNA. It is clear my father's link to Spanish-Portuguese Jews or Sephardim is not noise.

The link to the Middle East MENA and Iberia is narrow at 2-2.5%, but present. Project this from my father back about five-six generations and...we may have 100% Sephardim.
Combined with a Y-DNA like E-L1401 (part E-V22) which - except in my family - only occurs in the Middle East.

And an E-V22 that peaks (4,44%) in Europe in Asturias Spain, where the Sephardim/conversos have left the greatest genetic mark (40%).

So I don't think my paternal line was drawn from Frisian clay! But yes, it remains undercover with only Jan, Fokke, Haye. Enigma. Which "Frysk famke" meets "niño sefardí".... ?

Top work by the guys at Humanitas, including top geneticists Sammy Basso and Nicola Capelli. They also immediately had a bull's eye with Groningen as a target and also the Anglo-Saxon links that the Northern Dutch gene pool has. There will be a further analysis for specifically the Mediterranean part, but this is really classy in my eyes, recommended!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FgWC-ls...SEz7N/view
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#35
(05-31-2024, 06:30 PM)Rodoorn Wrote: [Image: temp-Image-G5i8hh.avif]


A closer analysis of my father's autosomal DNA. It is clear my father's link to Spanish-Portuguese Jews or Sephardim is not noise.

The link to the Middle East MENA and Iberia is narrow at 2-2.5%, but present. Project this from my father back about five-six generations and...we may have 100% Sephardim.
Combined with a Y-DNA like E-L1401 (part E-V22) which - except in my family - only occurs in the Middle East.

And an E-V22 that peaks (4,44%) in Europe in Asturias Spain, where the Sephardim/conversos have left the greatest genetic mark (40%).

So I don't think my paternal line was drawn from Frisian clay! But yes, it remains undercover with only Jan, Fokke, Haye. Enigma. Which "Frysk famke" meets "niño sefardí".... ?

Top work by the guys at Humanitas, including top geneticists Sammy Basso and Nicola Capelli. They also immediately had a bull's eye with Groningen as a target and also the Anglo-Saxon links that the Northern Dutch gene pool has. There will be a further analysis for specifically the Mediterranean part, but this is really classy in my eyes, recommended!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FgWC-ls...SEz7N/view

I've been looking into Humanitas, seems a very accurate service.
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#36
(05-31-2024, 05:02 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-28-2024, 12:58 PM)Rober_tce Wrote: What this article does not take into account are the Jewish converts who returned to the Iberian Peninsula after the general expulsion of 1492.

According to Joseph Pérez, the total number of converts finally expelled, after the return of someof them, would be around 50,000.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this particular paragraph summarize very well what I mean.


The number of Jews expelled remains a matter of controversy. The figures have ranged between 45,000 and 350,000, although the most recent investigations, according to Joseph Pérez, place it at around 50,000, taking into account the thousands of Jews who, after leaving, returned due to the mistreatment they suffered in some reception places, such as Fez, Morocco.[67] Julio Valdeón, also citing the latest research, places the figure between 70,000 and 100,000, of which between 50,000 and 80,000 would come from the Crown of Castile, although in These numbers do not count those returned.[67]

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi%...spa%C3%B1a

Other paragraph of Joseph Pérez’s book (Los judíos en España):

“All expenses were borne by those expelled: travel, maintenance, boat freight, rights of passage... They contracted ships at very high prices whose owners later did not fulfill the contract; Other bosses murdered those they were carrying to steal the little they owned. How many Jews left Spain then? The evaluations that have been given vary between 40,000 and 350,000; Bernáldez speaks of 170,000. The most recent works, based on reliable sources, give a total of less than 50,000, taking into account those who returned.
There was a proportion that is difficult to specify. Luis Suárez Fernández has been able to give a list of 177 names, generally heads of families, which implies that the number of individuals is higher. Many of those who had gone to Fez, in view of the poor treatment they were given, preferred to return to Spain and asked the governor of Asilah to baptize them.”

The book is written in spanish. I don’t know if there is an english version.

Sharp thanks!

Nice add to the paper.

Nevertheless this paper shows something different:

[Image: temp-Imagel-GYURv.avif]

Share of Sephardim (conversos) in the current population, Asturias peaks enormously and E-V22 (with 4.44% next to Sicily) also peaks: the highest in Europe. No coincidence imho.

Effectively it broadly could be the general diagram of jewish converse ancestry.

For especific regions maybe could be change. According some researchers like Enrique Soria Mesa, the regions where converse population had most presence were in Murcia (doesn’t appear here), Canary Islands, Córdoba and Granada (I would add Extremadura among others). This research is based in genealogical researchs and Inquisition registers.

Eastern Andalusia is a big territory with three (even four) regions, the papers assume that people of Jaen have same ancestry as Granada, and it doesn’t corresponde with historic narratives, for example Jaen is a región where moorish and converse population after expulsions remained less, but Granada had considerable population of converse and moorish (ad contrary as spanish official narrative says, overall when we talk about moorish).

I think we should increase the number of samples for specific regions, but isn’t easy. I hope next papers could do it.
Rufus191 and Rodoorn like this post
23andMe: 98.8% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.9% Trace Ancestry (0.4% Coptic Egypcian, 0.3% Nigerian, 0.2% Bengali & Northeast Indian).

My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish Scottish and Welsh.

The truth doesn’t become more authentic because whole world agrees with it.RaMBaM

-M. De la Torre, converse of jew-
-D. de Castilla, converse of moor-
-M. de Navas, converse of moor-
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#37
As a child, it was tempting to lift up the blood crust on an injured knee to see what was underneath. In the years that followed, this took on a different meaning for me.
A few years ago, out of curiosity, I took a Y-DNA test. This turned out to be E-V22. Together with Wim Penninx (expert on Jewish Y-DNA)  I did further research. E-V22 probably originated 8000 ybp together with the emergence of semi-nomadic pastoralism in the Southern Levant. and is core semitic (see links at the end). My subclade Is E-L1401 and occurs only in the Levant and only in my North Dutch family, the paternal lines intersect 5000 YBP. Hitherto it appears no where else (in Europe).

Along Ashkenazim there are some known E-V22 subclades. E-L1401 is not one of them (Wim Penninx). Along the Sephardim there are E-V22 beneath subclade E-PH2818. E-L1401 is also a subclade of E-PH2818. I dare to say with conviction that, given its origin and distribution, E-L1401 has a link with the Jewish diaspora and most likely that of the Sephardim.
This is supported, more speculatively but still, by an analysis of my father's autosomal. My father's autosomal shows a Sephardim fragment (MENA 2% + Iberian 3%). Taken together: Y-DNA + Autosomal point imo mainly to Sephardim. With a possible cross-pollination with Ashkenazim because there is also an element (1.4%) of Slavic Middle Ages. The sum is slightly above 6%.

This could mean that from my father 4 generations (6,25> 12,5%, 25%, 50%, 100%) ago we are in Sappemeer (Groningen). Thanks to DNA tests from distant cousins, I know that E-V22 was for sure there 4 generations ago.

The Jewish community in Hoogezand-Sappmeer had a size of 125 people in 1809, but more than doubled in the 19th century (this was also the origin of the famous doctor and feminist Alletta Jacobs). However, the paper trail does not provide any reference to a Jewish origin. However, towards another religious minority: the Roman Catholics. The family is the oldest Catholic of the region. This leads to a dead end: a "faux pas" by one of my great-grandmothers?

Because that blood crust is clearly there for a reason. Apparently something had to be covered up here that the official paper trail was not allowed to reach.... Nevertheless, it continues to be integrated. A possible 3/4 Sephardim -1/4 Ashkenazim at the end of the 18th century/beginning of the 19th century Sappemeer, how likely is that?
From what I hear and read, they were already completely separate worlds back then. An almost entirely Ashkenazim congregation such as that of Hoogezand-Sappemeer was at that time not in contact with the generally much richer and significant Sephardim congregations in mainly the urban areas in the West of the Netherlands. Or 'did the blood sometimes creep where it couldn't go'? Feel free to comment/add!

https://e-v22.net/origin/
https://e-v22.net/descendants/
https://e-v22.net/references/
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#38
(05-28-2024, 12:58 PM)Rober_tce Wrote: What this article does not take into account are the Jewish converts who returned to the Iberian Peninsula after the general expulsion of 1492.

According to Joseph Pérez, the total number of converts finally expelled, after the return of someof them, would be around 50,000.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this particular paragraph summarize very well what I mean.


The number of Jews expelled remains a matter of controversy. The figures have ranged between 45,000 and 350,000, although the most recent investigations, according to Joseph Pérez, place it at around 50,000, taking into account the thousands of Jews who, after leaving, returned due to the mistreatment they suffered in some reception places, such as Fez, Morocco.[67] Julio Valdeón, also citing the latest research, places the figure between 70,000 and 100,000, of which between 50,000 and 80,000 would come from the Crown of Castile, although in These numbers do not count those returned.[67]

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi%...spa%C3%B1a

Other paragraph of Joseph Pérez’s book (Los judíos en España):

“All expenses were borne by those expelled: travel, maintenance, boat freight, rights of passage... They contracted ships at very high prices whose owners later did not fulfill the contract; Other bosses murdered those they were carrying to steal the little they owned. How many Jews left Spain then? The evaluations that have been given vary between 40,000 and 350,000; Bernáldez speaks of 170,000. The most recent works, based on reliable sources, give a total of less than 50,000, taking into account those who returned.
There was a proportion that is difficult to specify. Luis Suárez Fernández has been able to give a list of 177 names, generally heads of families, which implies that the number of individuals is higher. Many of those who had gone to Fez, in view of the poor treatment they were given, preferred to return to Spain and asked the governor of Asilah to baptize them.”

The book is written in spanish. I don’t know if there is an english version.

FWIW, I'm inclined to go with Joseph R. Hacker's (Cambridge History of Judaism) figure of roughly 60,000 Jews permanently leaving both Iberia and Southern Italy between 1492 and 1521. That doesn't take into account those who left earlier or later. It's logical to group both those regions together, because the boundaries are porous, and a portion of the Jews leaving Southern Italy would have been of ultimate Iberian origin, either before or after 1492. It also doesn't account for those who left later, namely the Portuguese conversos who exited Portugal/Spain over a century later to form the Western Sephardic communities of Northwestern Europe and other locations. (I'm "passenger" from AG, btw)
Rodoorn and Rober_tce like this post
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#39
(05-31-2024, 05:02 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-28-2024, 12:58 PM)Rober_tce Wrote: What this article does not take into account are the Jewish converts who returned to the Iberian Peninsula after the general expulsion of 1492.

According to Joseph Pérez, the total number of converts finally expelled, after the return of someof them, would be around 50,000.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this particular paragraph summarize very well what I mean.


The number of Jews expelled remains a matter of controversy. The figures have ranged between 45,000 and 350,000, although the most recent investigations, according to Joseph Pérez, place it at around 50,000, taking into account the thousands of Jews who, after leaving, returned due to the mistreatment they suffered in some reception places, such as Fez, Morocco.[67] Julio Valdeón, also citing the latest research, places the figure between 70,000 and 100,000, of which between 50,000 and 80,000 would come from the Crown of Castile, although in These numbers do not count those returned.[67]

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi%...spa%C3%B1a

Other paragraph of Joseph Pérez’s book (Los judíos en España):

“All expenses were borne by those expelled: travel, maintenance, boat freight, rights of passage... They contracted ships at very high prices whose owners later did not fulfill the contract; Other bosses murdered those they were carrying to steal the little they owned. How many Jews left Spain then? The evaluations that have been given vary between 40,000 and 350,000; Bernáldez speaks of 170,000. The most recent works, based on reliable sources, give a total of less than 50,000, taking into account those who returned.
There was a proportion that is difficult to specify. Luis Suárez Fernández has been able to give a list of 177 names, generally heads of families, which implies that the number of individuals is higher. Many of those who had gone to Fez, in view of the poor treatment they were given, preferred to return to Spain and asked the governor of Asilah to baptize them.”

The book is written in spanish. I don’t know if there is an english version.

Sharp thanks!

Nice add to the paper.

Nevertheless this paper shows something different:

[Image: temp-Imagel-GYURv.avif]

Share of Sephardim (conversos) in the current population, Asturias peaks enormously and E-V22 (with 4.44% next to Sicily) also peaks: the highest in Europe. No coincidence imho.

That paper is outdated and based on early/incomplete haplogroup data and flawed methodology. It basically extrapolates all instances of a haplogroup E to denote NW African admixture; all instances of haplogroup J to denote Sephardic admixture; and all instances of haplogroup R1b to denote local Iberian admixture. This was before downstream clade assignments were a thing. None of these proposed admixture ratios are reflected in autosomal findings or modern haplogroup data from any of these regions. NW African admixture averages between 2-5% in the mainland Iberian population and Sephardic admixture is not statistically significant be reflected in regional averages (though there are certainly individual samples that can be found).

The Asturias data, for example, is based on a sample size of 20 and assigns ‘North African’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for E3b and assigns ‘Sephardic’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for haplogroup J2 and G (the glaring flaws in this methodology should be self-evident). I suggest you take this 16 year-old study in its proper context.
Rodoorn likes this post
Y-DNA: R1b-BY157765 (Asturies, ESP)
mtDNA: H18b (Portugal)

Modern Ancestral Admixture 
23andMe: 76.9% Spanish & Portuguese, 23.1% British & Irish 
Reply
#40
(06-11-2024, 06:50 AM)Astur_Cantabri Wrote:
(05-31-2024, 05:02 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-28-2024, 12:58 PM)Rober_tce Wrote: What this article does not take into account are the Jewish converts who returned to the Iberian Peninsula after the general expulsion of 1492.

According to Joseph Pérez, the total number of converts finally expelled, after the return of someof them, would be around 50,000.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this particular paragraph summarize very well what I mean.


The number of Jews expelled remains a matter of controversy. The figures have ranged between 45,000 and 350,000, although the most recent investigations, according to Joseph Pérez, place it at around 50,000, taking into account the thousands of Jews who, after leaving, returned due to the mistreatment they suffered in some reception places, such as Fez, Morocco.[67] Julio Valdeón, also citing the latest research, places the figure between 70,000 and 100,000, of which between 50,000 and 80,000 would come from the Crown of Castile, although in These numbers do not count those returned.[67]

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi%...spa%C3%B1a

Other paragraph of Joseph Pérez’s book (Los judíos en España):

“All expenses were borne by those expelled: travel, maintenance, boat freight, rights of passage... They contracted ships at very high prices whose owners later did not fulfill the contract; Other bosses murdered those they were carrying to steal the little they owned. How many Jews left Spain then? The evaluations that have been given vary between 40,000 and 350,000; Bernáldez speaks of 170,000. The most recent works, based on reliable sources, give a total of less than 50,000, taking into account those who returned.
There was a proportion that is difficult to specify. Luis Suárez Fernández has been able to give a list of 177 names, generally heads of families, which implies that the number of individuals is higher. Many of those who had gone to Fez, in view of the poor treatment they were given, preferred to return to Spain and asked the governor of Asilah to baptize them.”

The book is written in spanish. I don’t know if there is an english version.

Sharp thanks!

Nice add to the paper.

Nevertheless this paper shows something different:

[Image: temp-Imagel-GYURv.avif]

Share of Sephardim (conversos) in the current population, Asturias peaks enormously and E-V22 (with 4.44% next to Sicily) also peaks: the highest in Europe. No coincidence imho.

That paper is outdated and based on early/incomplete haplogroup data and flawed methodology. It basically extrapolates all instances of a haplogroup E to denote NW African admixture; all instances of haplogroup J to denote Sephardic admixture; and all instances of haplogroup R1b to denote local Iberian admixture. This was before downstream clade assignments were a thing. None of these proposed admixture ratios are reflected in autosomal findings or modern haplogroup data from any of these regions. NW African admixture averages between 2-5% in the mainland Iberian population and Sephardic admixture is not statistically significant be reflected in regional averages (though there are certainly individual samples that can be found).

The Asturias data, for example, is based on a sample size of 20 and assigns ‘North African’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for E3b and assigns ‘Sephardic’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for haplogroup J2 and G (the glaring flaws in this methodology should be self-evident). I suggest you take this 16 year-old study in its proper context.

Ok thanks, time to get a revised paper!
Astur_Cantabri likes this post
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#41
(06-11-2024, 06:50 AM)Astur_Cantabri Wrote:
(05-31-2024, 05:02 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-28-2024, 12:58 PM)Rober_tce Wrote: What this article does not take into account are the Jewish converts who returned to the Iberian Peninsula after the general expulsion of 1492.

According to Joseph Pérez, the total number of converts finally expelled, after the return of someof them, would be around 50,000.

I don't like wikipedia links, but this particular paragraph summarize very well what I mean.


The number of Jews expelled remains a matter of controversy. The figures have ranged between 45,000 and 350,000, although the most recent investigations, according to Joseph Pérez, place it at around 50,000, taking into account the thousands of Jews who, after leaving, returned due to the mistreatment they suffered in some reception places, such as Fez, Morocco.[67] Julio Valdeón, also citing the latest research, places the figure between 70,000 and 100,000, of which between 50,000 and 80,000 would come from the Crown of Castile, although in These numbers do not count those returned.[67]

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi%...spa%C3%B1a

Other paragraph of Joseph Pérez’s book (Los judíos en España):

“All expenses were borne by those expelled: travel, maintenance, boat freight, rights of passage... They contracted ships at very high prices whose owners later did not fulfill the contract; Other bosses murdered those they were carrying to steal the little they owned. How many Jews left Spain then? The evaluations that have been given vary between 40,000 and 350,000; Bernáldez speaks of 170,000. The most recent works, based on reliable sources, give a total of less than 50,000, taking into account those who returned.
There was a proportion that is difficult to specify. Luis Suárez Fernández has been able to give a list of 177 names, generally heads of families, which implies that the number of individuals is higher. Many of those who had gone to Fez, in view of the poor treatment they were given, preferred to return to Spain and asked the governor of Asilah to baptize them.”

The book is written in spanish. I don’t know if there is an english version.

Sharp thanks!

Nice add to the paper.

Nevertheless this paper shows something different:

[Image: temp-Imagel-GYURv.avif]

Share of Sephardim (conversos) in the current population, Asturias peaks enormously and E-V22 (with 4.44% next to Sicily) also peaks: the highest in Europe. No coincidence imho.

That paper is outdated and based on early/incomplete haplogroup data and flawed methodology. It basically extrapolates all instances of a haplogroup E to denote NW African admixture; all instances of haplogroup J to denote Sephardic admixture; and all instances of haplogroup R1b to denote local Iberian admixture. This was before downstream clade assignments were a thing. None of these proposed admixture ratios are reflected in autosomal findings or modern haplogroup data from any of these regions. NW African admixture averages between 2-5% in the mainland Iberian population and Sephardic admixture is not statistically significant be reflected in regional averages (though there are certainly individual samples that can be found).

The Asturias data, for example, is based on a sample size of 20 and assigns ‘North African’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for E3b and assigns ‘Sephardic’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for haplogroup J2 and G (the glaring flaws in this methodology should be self-evident). I suggest you take this 16 year-old study in its proper context.

I suppose you talks about NA markers as an global iberian average (maybe 4-5%). North African admixture in Iberia reach in some regions 9-10% ad máximum, for example Portugal, corresponding to last papers. Althougth we need more papers with more samples about it in future.

For sephardic origins, it would be more complex, the haplogroups are inssuficient, we must take in consideration haplogroups, autosomal genetics and historic records. To see the global impact in modern iberians don’t make sense, it’s clear that jewish converse population after 1492 was concentred in some regions (as I have said before), so the papers would should take in consideration specific regions according to historic records, even part of sephardic genetic some modern individuals could lose it… the sephardic ancestors and converse lived between 15th and 17th centuries, then they mixed with christian population and the incipient endogamy of precendent centuries was broken, we don’t inherit all markers of our ancestors, and the minoritary markers are the first that we lose through generations.

Having said this, let’s not divert the thread with NA genetics, NA theme is recurrent in Spain, but this thread is dedicated to Sephardim.
23andMe: 98.8% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.9% Trace Ancestry (0.4% Coptic Egypcian, 0.3% Nigerian, 0.2% Bengali & Northeast Indian).

My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish Scottish and Welsh.

The truth doesn’t become more authentic because whole world agrees with it.RaMBaM

-M. De la Torre, converse of jew-
-D. de Castilla, converse of moor-
-M. de Navas, converse of moor-
Reply
#42
(06-13-2024, 08:38 AM)Rober_tce Wrote:
(06-11-2024, 06:50 AM)Astur_Cantabri Wrote:
(05-31-2024, 05:02 PM)Rodoorn Wrote: Sharp thanks!

Nice add to the paper.

Nevertheless this paper shows something different:

[Image: temp-Imagel-GYURv.avif]

Share of Sephardim (conversos) in the current population, Asturias peaks enormously and E-V22 (with 4.44% next to Sicily) also peaks: the highest in Europe. No coincidence imho.

That paper is outdated and based on early/incomplete haplogroup data and flawed methodology. It basically extrapolates all instances of a haplogroup E to denote NW African admixture; all instances of haplogroup J to denote Sephardic admixture; and all instances of haplogroup R1b to denote local Iberian admixture. This was before downstream clade assignments were a thing. None of these proposed admixture ratios are reflected in autosomal findings or modern haplogroup data from any of these regions. NW African admixture averages between 2-5% in the mainland Iberian population and Sephardic admixture is not statistically significant be reflected in regional averages (though there are certainly individual samples that can be found).

The Asturias data, for example, is based on a sample size of 20 and assigns ‘North African’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for E3b and assigns ‘Sephardic’ admixture on the basis of positive calls for haplogroup J2 and G (the glaring flaws in this methodology should be self-evident). I suggest you take this 16 year-old study in its proper context.

I suppose you talks about NA markers as an global iberian average (maybe 4-5%). North African admixture in Iberia reach in some regions 9-10% ad máximum, for example Portugal, corresponding to last papers. Althougth we need more papers with more samples about it in future.

For sephardic origins, it would be more complex, the haplogroups are inssuficient, we must take in consideration haplogroups, autosomal genetics and historic records. To see the global impact in modern iberians don’t make sense, it’s clear that jewish converse population after 1492 was concentred in some regions (as I have said before), so the papers would should take in consideration specific regions according to historic records, even part of sephardic genetic some modern individuals could lose it… the sephardic ancestors and converse lived between 15th and 17th centuries, then they mixed with christian population and the incipient endogamy of precendent centuries was broken, we don’t inherit all markers of our ancestors, and the minoritary markers are the first that we lose through generations.

Having said this, let’s not divert the thread with NA genetics, NA theme is recurrent in Spain, but this thread is dedicated to Sephardim.

I agree that haplogroups are a wildly insufficient methodology from which to extrapolate any reliable figures for admixture — hence, my criticism of the 16 year-old study cited in this thread. The numbers I cited are based upon basal admixture results obtained by autosomal testing. The question of both NW and Sephardic admixture is a difficult one to pinpoint due to the diverse genetic character of both populations. 

I should have specified that basal NW African (i.e. Iberomaurusian) averages 2-5% in the mainland Iberian population. The figures could potentially skew a little higher, but would still likely oscillate around that baseline percentage, in my opinion. 

Furthermore, it’s difficult to assign any specific period or source population to the entirety of NW African admixture, as it has been present at low levels in the Iberian peninsula as far back as the Bronze Age — as is evidenced in multiple Iberian aDNA samples — and was present at statistically significant levels as far back as the Roman period. Regardless, it’s reasonable to assume that at least a plurality of the admixture present in the modern Iberian population is a result of Islamic-period diffusion, though I believe the absence of other basal Levantine and African genes in modern Iberians (that were carried by Islamic-period Berbers) further complicates the question. The same applies to the question of Sephardim ancestry, as there were other source populations (e.g., Phoenicians, Punics, Greeks, and Romans) that also contributed to the diffusion of comparable Eastern Mediterranean-shifted genes. 

Analysis would therefore have to incorporate an assortment of genetic factors into its methodology to arrive at sound conclusions — including deep clade haplogroup testing; testing the sorts of enclaves you mentioned, etc.)
Y-DNA: R1b-BY157765 (Asturies, ESP)
mtDNA: H18b (Portugal)

Modern Ancestral Admixture 
23andMe: 76.9% Spanish & Portuguese, 23.1% British & Irish 
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