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E-V22 origins and spread
#46
(05-11-2024, 07:33 PM)Qrts Wrote:
(05-11-2024, 07:47 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-10-2024, 09:47 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I believe the Nostratic tree is misleading, i don't think IE and Afro-Asiatic stem from the same root, they have nothing to do with each other.

Potentially there might have been an influence from still E-L618 Afro-Asiatic speaking community in Eastern Carpathians and influencing some wanderwords in early PIE like the name of cow/taurus, some numerical words like number seven etc, etc, etc.

Nostratic is not the key here. It's about the Semitic lineage. And most of all the coherence between the rise and spread of the pastoralists in the Southern Levant, the genetic and linguistic aspects thereof, with a time frame of 8000 YBP (6000 BC) >. That's the clue in my opinion.

The genetic effect is anyway the origin, the split of E-V22, which caused a tremendously large population jump!

Wim Penninx: ‘The population jumps of E-V22 are the oldest large population jump. If we look into details, it appears that we have two population jumps fairly close together: E-CTS567 (8300 ybp) and E-L1250 (7800 ybp) with a distance of 10 SNPs, of which 5 are in the yfull defined CombBED region. This means that the time difference between the two has some uncertain ranging from 500-800 years. Both population jumps have many descending lines. 

[Image: temp-Image-WTm-Pnb.avif]
The diagram above is the distribution in time excluding the European E1b-V13. This gives a better view on the different population jumps of the Afroasiatic branches.'
The green one is E-V22, you see the "big bang" in the timeframe 8500-6000 YBP. Imo not coincidental with 'The Revolutions in the Desert: The Rise of Mobile Pastoralism' (Rose). Better said, it is a clear manifestation of the rise of the pastoralists!

And that also includes the following. Zohar (1992): “The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East."

Is there perhaps a similar diagram for E-V12?

It's present, the blue grayish part, 12.000>.
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#47
(05-12-2024, 05:29 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-12-2024, 12:08 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-11-2024, 07:47 AM)Rodoorn Wrote: Nostratic is not the key here. It's about the Semitic lineage. And most of all the coherence between the rise and spread of the pastoralists in the Southern Levant, the genetic and linguistic aspects thereof, with a time frame of 8000 YBP (6000 BC) >. That's the clue in my opinion.

The genetic effect is anyway the origin, the split of E-V22, which caused a tremendously large population jump!

Wim Penninx: ‘The population jumps of E-V22 are the oldest large population jump. If we look into details, it appears that we have two population jumps fairly close together: E-CTS567 (8300 ybp) and E-L1250 (7800 ybp) with a distance of 10 SNPs, of which 5 are in the yfull defined CombBED region. This means that the time difference between the two has some uncertain ranging from 500-800 years. Both population jumps have many descending lines. 

[Image: temp-Image-WTm-Pnb.avif]
The diagram above is the distribution in time excluding the European E1b-V13. This gives a better view on the different population jumps of the Afroasiatic branches.'
The green one is E-V22, you see the "big bang" in the timeframe 8500-6000 YBP. Imo not coincidental with 'The Revolutions in the Desert: The Rise of Mobile Pastoralism' (Rose). Better said, it is a clear manifestation of the rise of the pastoralists!

And that also includes the following. Zohar (1992): “The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East."


The consensus is that these groups didn't contribute significantly to Egypt. They seemed to have a larger presence in the Green Sahara, Sudan, East Africa.

Eventually they conquered the Levant and even moved into Lower Egypt, but that was in the Early Bronze Age (early 4th Millenium - c. 3700 BC in Egypt)

Do I read a wish or a consensus? Wink 

I guess they already dropped in around 8000 YBP, see Allison Smith (2013) and more.

Ofer Bar-Yosef, Nile Valley-Levant interactions: An eclectic review (same bundle as Smith 2013). In the case of E-V22 and pastoralists, PPNC is of primary interest:
“The next phase of migration by farmers bringing goats and later sheep into Egypt took place after the “8200 cal BP cold event” (c.6200cal BC).

The Egyptian Neolithic that dates to the 6th millennium BC provides a wealth of evidence for the connections with the Levant partially due to inward migration of small groups as indicated by the genetic evidence (see Alison Smith, this volume).


The Levantine origins of the bifacial projectiles and knives were already suggested by more than one study (e.g. Wetterstrom 1993; Shirai 2010 andreferences therein). Movements of Levantine groups were probably the mechanism that brought cattle, goat and sheep to the Nile valley.”

Shayla Monroe, Stuart Tyson Smith , Sarah B. McClure, Pastoralism, hunting, and coexistence: Domesticated and wild bovids in Neolithic Sudan (2023):
“By 6000 BC, these Nile Valley subsistence strategies began to accommodate the initial influx of caprines from Southwest Asia (Wengrow et al., 2014)”


And that doesn't excludes later waves indeed!

The studies you reference keep using the word FARMER in quite literally every study you've linked so far.

I've read every single one of them. Have you? One of them even refutes the idea of pastoralists, and claims it is only attested in an east - west migration across middle and upper Egypt (proceeding into Sudan and East Africa, but also the Green Sahara)

From the link you keep citing, all of which continue to support my beliefs:

Quote:I therefore assume that farming actually reached the Nile delta and started there by 8,000-7,000 cal BC and then spread upstream along the Nile valley. Hamlets and villages of this period were not yet found in the Nile delta or between its apex and the Fayum basin. The current belief is that the sites of this time are buried deep beneath the deposits of the Nile delta.
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#48
(05-13-2024, 05:24 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-12-2024, 05:29 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-12-2024, 12:08 AM)ilabv Wrote: The consensus is that these groups didn't contribute significantly to Egypt. They seemed to have a larger presence in the Green Sahara, Sudan, East Africa.

Eventually they conquered the Levant and even moved into Lower Egypt, but that was in the Early Bronze Age (early 4th Millenium - c. 3700 BC in Egypt)

Do I read a wish or a consensus? Wink 

I guess they already dropped in around 8000 YBP, see Allison Smith (2013) and more.

Ofer Bar-Yosef, Nile Valley-Levant interactions: An eclectic review (same bundle as Smith 2013). In the case of E-V22 and pastoralists, PPNC is of primary interest:
“The next phase of migration by farmers bringing goats and later sheep into Egypt took place after the “8200 cal BP cold event” (c.6200cal BC).

The Egyptian Neolithic that dates to the 6th millennium BC provides a wealth of evidence for the connections with the Levant partially due to inward migration of small groups as indicated by the genetic evidence (see Alison Smith, this volume).


The Levantine origins of the bifacial projectiles and knives were already suggested by more than one study (e.g. Wetterstrom 1993; Shirai 2010 andreferences therein). Movements of Levantine groups were probably the mechanism that brought cattle, goat and sheep to the Nile valley.”

Shayla Monroe, Stuart Tyson Smith , Sarah B. McClure, Pastoralism, hunting, and coexistence: Domesticated and wild bovids in Neolithic Sudan (2023):
“By 6000 BC, these Nile Valley subsistence strategies began to accommodate the initial influx of caprines from Southwest Asia (Wengrow et al., 2014)”


And that doesn't excludes later waves indeed!

The studies you reference keep using the word FARMER in quite literally every study you've linked so far.

I've read every single one of them. Have you? One of them even refutes the idea of pastoralists, and claims it is only attested in an east - west migration across middle and upper Egypt (proceeding into Sudan and East Africa, but also the Green Sahara)

From the link you keep citing, all of which continue to support my beliefs:

Quote:I therefore assume that farming actually reached the Nile delta and started there by 8,000-7,000 cal BC and then spread upstream along the Nile valley. Hamlets and villages of this period were not yet found in the Nile delta or between its apex and the Fayum basin. The current belief is that the sites of this time are buried deep beneath the deposits of the Nile delta.

I have read everything of course Wink 

I'm not so much interested in the farmer population. The subject here is E-V22. And there are reasons to believe that the rise of the pastoralist and the rise of E-V22 are connected.

The farmer issue is interesting but in this respect  c.q. thread secondary, although it could well be the case that in some cases this shows up in the sources.
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#49
Is it necessary that pastoralists and farmers were different populations? Conceptually, I have been thinking of pastoralism vs. farming as an adaptation to environmental pressures. For example, the journal I shared demonstrates that in the Nile Delta, while herding came first, it was followed only 300 years later by agriculture, when climate conditions rebounded. And even when indications of agriculture show up in the samples, people were still herding animals, too. (https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-022-00416-7)

I did not read this as pastoralists came ca 7000ka, then were replaced by farmers 300 years later, or even that a new population introduced farming practices. I took it as the herders used that area for pasturage first, then started growing crops there when it became suitable to do so.
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#50
(05-10-2024, 10:24 AM)ilabv Wrote: Proto-Semitic at 6000 BC is quite frankly silly. Not worth refuting

Would Pre-Proto-Semitic make sense at 6000BC? E.g. it's split from other Afroasiatic languages?
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#51
(05-14-2024, 05:03 PM)Kale Wrote:
(05-10-2024, 10:24 AM)ilabv Wrote: Proto-Semitic at 6000 BC is quite frankly silly. Not worth refuting

Would Pre-Proto-Semitic make sense at 6000BC? E.g. it's split from other Afroasiatic languages?

Why not?

Zohar (1992) states:

"The simultaneous appearance of mobile pastoralism and Semitic language does not necessarily mean that the two are connected but  the probability is very high. All the reasons combined seem to make a good case for the spread of probably relative small mobile groups of pastoralists speaking Old Semitic into the Near East.

The limited historical sources in our possession show that the pastoralists were undoubtedly Semitic (Henninger 1969). Also the ruling class in the newly established Middle Bronze Age towns and cities of Syria-Palestine were predominantly Semitic according to names supplied by Egyptian sources."
...

"Without assuming an “ethnic struggle” in the modern sense of the word, it seems to be clear that it was the constant pressure of the semi-nomadic pastoralists which led to the dominance of the Semitic languages in the Levant. The grand theme of Near Eastern history, the struggle between the Desert and the Sown, can also be followed in linguistic terms. The time-honored view of many scholars, seeing the renewal of Semitic peoples if the Fertile Crescent in the ever repeating waves of pastoral nomads and semi-nomads appearing out of the desert in various degrees of strength and settling in the fertile areas, appears to have been correct, after all."

It is a fact that the rise of the pastoralist goes together with the rise of E-V22 (and the explosion of it's subclades) all 8000-6000 YBP. For sure the core of the proto-Semites.
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#52
(05-14-2024, 01:17 PM)Cejo Wrote: Is it necessary that pastoralists and farmers were different populations? Conceptually, I have been thinking of pastoralism vs. farming as an adaptation to environmental pressures. For example, the journal I shared demonstrates that in the Nile Delta, while herding came first, it was followed only 300 years later by agriculture, when climate conditions rebounded. And even when indications of agriculture show up in the samples, people were still herding animals, too. (https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-022-00416-7)

I did not read this as pastoralists came ca 7000ka, then were replaced by farmers 300 years later, or even that a new population introduced farming practices. I took it as the herders used that area for pasturage first, then started growing crops there when it became suitable to do so.

No need, it's even unlikely. It was one source population. But that's not end of story.

Because if I'm well 8000 YBP there was a bottle neck event in the Southern Levant.

From the E-V22 website about 'Ain Ghazal:
" Around 8000 YBP 2500 people lived there. The social and economic organization changed. ‘Ain Ghazal was no longer a small village.
However, problems soon arose. The land around ‘Ain Ghazal became exhausted from centuries of use during the late PPNB. Already in the late PPNB (ca. 8500 YBP), diversity in the animal world declined sharply. Hunting was almost impossible anymore. During the PPNC, people compensated for this by increasing livestock farming. Sheep, goats, pigs and later even aurochs (which remained wild for a long time).

In the PPNC (c. 7800 YBP), the population fell sharply to perhaps less than 500 (Köhler-Rollefson 1992). During the PN, agriculture and livestock farming collapsed. The latest finds are those of sheep and goat herders, who only pitched their round tents here in certain seasons because of the water of the river and the spring." 
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#53
Some E-V22 are found in Bulgaria. Previously we knew from testing at 23andMe, where it was shown as E-L677, but recently 2 Big Y were ordered at FTDNA.
The first is proven E-FT345447, splitting from his closest branches around 2000BC.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...45447/tree
The second is for now E-BY872 from the FF test, waiting for a deeper assignment.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y20282/

We suspect migration from Middle East during Roman, Byzantine or even Ottoman times. Probably random branches surviving in Europe.
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#54
(05-16-2024, 01:30 PM)eastara Wrote: Some E-V22 are found in Bulgaria. Previously we knew from testing at 23andMe, where it was shown as E-L677, but recently 2 Big Y were ordered at FTDNA.
The first is proven E-FT345447, splitting from his closest branches around 2000BC.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...45447/tree
The second is for now E-BY872 from the FF test, waiting for a deeper assignment.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y20282/

We suspect migration from Middle East during Roman, Byzantine or even Ottoman times. Probably random branches surviving in Europe.

Recently joined a Bulgarian sample my branch E-L1401.

See: 
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L1401/
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#55
Solving a mystery about my E-V22 line:
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...8#pid25048
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#56
(07-06-2024, 10:42 AM)Rodoorn Wrote: Solving a mystery about  my E-V22 line:
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...8#pid25048

You've definitely made a valid case, but if your line was indeed Ashkenazi shouldn't you also at least match with other Ashkenazis too? Considering most of their paternal lines experienced a founder effect sometime in the early middle ages, and they're very well tested overall.
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#57
(07-06-2024, 11:26 AM)Qrts Wrote:
(07-06-2024, 10:42 AM)Rodoorn Wrote: Solving a mystery about  my E-V22 line:
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...8#pid25048

You've definitely made a valid case, but if your line was indeed Ashkenazi shouldn't you also at least match with other Ashkenazis too? Considering most of their paternal lines experienced a founder effect sometime in the early middle ages, and they're very well tested overall.

The match was with an Ashkenazi c.q. a Danish Jew. Danish Jews contain also a severe shot Sefardim (they had initial free entre).

One of my father's genetic groups on my heritage (the recent 2.0) is Dutch-English-German Ashkenazim.

[Image: temp-Images-Kbww-J.avif]
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#58
(05-16-2024, 01:30 PM)eastara Wrote: Some E-V22 are found in Bulgaria. Previously we knew from testing at 23andMe, where it was shown as E-L677, but recently 2 Big Y were ordered at FTDNA.
The first is proven E-FT345447, splitting from his closest branches around 2000BC.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...45447/tree
The second is for now E-BY872 from the FF test, waiting for a deeper assignment.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y20282/

We suspect migration from Middle East during Roman, Byzantine or even Ottoman times. Probably random branches surviving in Europe.

Some add about the sample:

YF130703 new Bulgaria (Burgas) / Ottoman Turkish (1500-1928)

Wasn't Burgas a center of Jewish life?

"In 1910 lived already in Sofía :13,844 , Plovdiv : 6,273 , Ruse : 4,444 ,  Burgas: 3,432, Varna : 2,456, Vidin : 2,242 Sephardic Jews"

https://esefarad.com/sephardic-jews-in-b...el-israel/
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#59
(07-06-2024, 08:32 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-16-2024, 01:30 PM)eastara Wrote: Some E-V22 are found in Bulgaria. Previously we knew from testing at 23andMe, where it was shown as E-L677, but recently 2 Big Y were ordered at FTDNA.
The first is proven E-FT345447, splitting from his closest branches around 2000BC.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...45447/tree
The second is for now E-BY872 from the FF test, waiting for a deeper assignment.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y20282/

We suspect migration from Middle East during Roman, Byzantine or even Ottoman times. Probably random branches surviving in Europe.

Some add about the sample:

YF130703 new Bulgaria (Burgas) / Ottoman Turkish (1500-1928)

Wasn't Burgas a center of Jewish life?

"In 1910 lived already in Sofía :13,844 , Plovdiv : 6,273 , Ruse : 4,444 ,  Burgas: 3,432, Varna : 2,456, Vidin : 2,242 Sephardic Jews"

https://esefarad.com/sephardic-jews-in-b...el-israel/

I remember looking for more information on this “Bulgarian” kit to get a better sense of E-L1401 and correlations with various archaeological cultures – the kit in question descends from an Ottoman Turkish colonist, with Bulgarian Turks largely deriving their roots from peasants in nearby western and northwestern Anatolia. Worth considering is also the fact there is a Greek Cypriot kit at E-FTA50338 which is SNP pack tested, hence why it does not appear in the “Discover” tool (Big Y would be crucial); this strongly suggests a shared, native Anatolian origin for the respective Turkish-descended and Greek Cypriot kits, more particularly pointing to some E-FTA50338 being spread along western Anatolia. The Iraqi kits in this block derive their ancestry from progenitors in northern-central Iraq, forming a neat trail from northern Mesopotamia into central and western Anatolia; considering the Palestinian kit at E-L1401*, I would argue that L1401 represents a filtration of elements in prehistory from the Levant into Upper Mesopotamia, thereupon dispersing into Anatolia proper with FTA50338 (noteworthy in this context is E-FT256253, another branch of E-PH2818 with a close TMRCA to that of L1401, containing an Armenian kit at the FT256253* position and German kits with ancestry from Hesse at FT256363 with a Medieval TMRCA). Based on the TMRCA for L1401, I would associate FTA50338 with dispersals out of Uruk during the later part of the Uruk period, following the Euphrates or Tigris rivers northward and contributing to the development of urban settlements in southeastern Anatolia - by extension, I do not view your Y-DNA as being connected to a later Jewish introgression (although it is, of course, not impossible). 

Important to consider is also the possibility of L1401 migrating back into Palestine from sources to the north and east, from the Bronze Age all the way into the Middle Ages, but I still think Upper Mesopotamia is the area within which L1401 started to proliferate and spread as agriculturalists in nearby areas during the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. Note also that for Jewish E1b, the Medieval founder effect of Ashkenazim causes huge blocks of diversification throughout the Middle Ages (although especially concentrated in the High Middle Ages) wherein there will be tons of Jewish representation in a fairly recent clade, putting the Jewishness of your L1401* clade into doubt (since hypothetically it should still be present among modern Jewish individuals). There are Jewish E1b blocks that show bottlenecking from the Chalcolithic just like L1401 (e.g., E-M34 > Y14891 and E-V22 > BY7500); however, the fact your own clade does not show Iron Age to Medieval matches with Jewish testers or East Mediterranean populations makes me doubt a Jewish provenience, since it seems more likely that Jewish Y-DNA haplogroups will match quite closely with one-another due to a combination of endogamy and a rather small founding Medieval population. These are just my own speculations, hopefully you get more Y-DNA matches in the ancient DNA record and among modern testers to clarify the situation - quite exciting to have such an obscure lineage! Big Grin
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Y-Line (P): Sint-Maria-Horebeke, Oost-Vlaanderen, Belgium (c. 1660)
mtDNA: Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Y-Line (M): Eggleston, County Durham, England (c. 1600)
Genealogy: France (Nord, Pas-de-Calais, Picardy, Normandy), Belgium - Flanders (Oost-Vlaanderen, West-Vlaanderen), Belgium - Wallonia (Hainaut, Namur), England (SW, NE), Scotland (Aberdeenshire, Galloway), Netherlands (Zeeland, Friesland), Jersey
Anthrogenica Join Date: 10-09-2022

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#60
(07-07-2024, 12:19 AM)Ambiorix Wrote:
(07-06-2024, 08:32 PM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-16-2024, 01:30 PM)eastara Wrote: Some E-V22 are found in Bulgaria. Previously we knew from testing at 23andMe, where it was shown as E-L677, but recently 2 Big Y were ordered at FTDNA.
The first is proven E-FT345447, splitting from his closest branches around 2000BC.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...45447/tree
The second is for now E-BY872 from the FF test, waiting for a deeper assignment.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y20282/

We suspect migration from Middle East during Roman, Byzantine or even Ottoman times. Probably random branches surviving in Europe.

Some add about the sample:

YF130703 new Bulgaria (Burgas) / Ottoman Turkish (1500-1928)

Wasn't Burgas a center of Jewish life?

"In 1910 lived already in Sofía :13,844 , Plovdiv : 6,273 , Ruse : 4,444 ,  Burgas: 3,432, Varna : 2,456, Vidin : 2,242 Sephardic Jews"

https://esefarad.com/sephardic-jews-in-b...el-israel/

I remember looking for more information on this “Bulgarian” kit to get a better sense of E-L1401 and correlations with various archaeological cultures – the kit in question descends from an Ottoman Turkish colonist, with Bulgarian Turks largely deriving their roots from peasants in nearby western and northwestern Anatolia. Worth considering is also the fact there is a Greek Cypriot kit at E-FTA50338 which is SNP pack tested, hence why it does not appear in the “Discover” tool (Big Y would be crucial); this strongly suggests a shared, native Anatolian origin for the respective Turkish-descended and Greek Cypriot kits, more particularly pointing to some E-FTA50338 being spread along western Anatolia. The Iraqi kits in this block derive their ancestry from progenitors in northern-central Iraq, forming a neat trail from northern Mesopotamia into central and western Anatolia; considering the Palestinian kit at E-L1401*, I would argue that L1401 represents a filtration of elements in prehistory from the Levant into Upper Mesopotamia, thereupon dispersing into Anatolia proper with FTA50338 (noteworthy in this context is E-FT256253, another branch of E-PH2818 with a close TMRCA to that of L1401, containing an Armenian kit at the FT256253* position and German kits with ancestry from Hesse at FT256363 with a Medieval TMRCA). Based on the TMRCA for L1401, I would associate FTA50338 with dispersals out of Uruk during the later part of the Uruk period, following the Euphrates or Tigris rivers northward and contributing to the development of urban settlements in southeastern Anatolia - by extension, I do not view your Y-DNA as being connected to a later Jewish introgression (although it is, of course, not impossible). 

Important to consider is also the possibility of L1401 migrating back into Palestine from sources to the north and east, from the Bronze Age all the way into the Middle Ages, but I still think Upper Mesopotamia is the area within which L1401 started to proliferate and spread as agriculturalists in nearby areas during the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. Note also that for Jewish E1b, the Medieval founder effect of Ashkenazim causes huge blocks of diversification throughout the Middle Ages (although especially concentrated in the High Middle Ages) wherein there will be tons of Jewish representation in a fairly recent clade, putting the Jewishness of your L1401* clade into doubt (since hypothetically it should still be present among modern Jewish individuals). There are Jewish E1b blocks that show bottlenecking from the Chalcolithic just like L1401 (e.g., E-M34 > Y14891 and E-V22 > BY7500); however, the fact your own clade does not show Iron Age to Medieval matches with Jewish testers or East Mediterranean populations makes me doubt a Jewish provenience, since it seems more likely that Jewish Y-DNA haplogroups will match quite closely with one-another due to a combination of endogamy and a rather small founding Medieval population. These are just my own speculations, hopefully you get more Y-DNA matches in the ancient DNA record and among modern testers to clarify the situation - quite exciting to have such an obscure lineage! Big Grin

Indeed it still remains a quest Ambriorix!

A few things that I'm certain of....kind of black/white, yes/no

1. E-L1401 is a MENA Y-DNA and a total exception in NW Europe.
2. On autosomal level with regard to nowadays living persons, we can find traces autosomal in the pedigree tree from the modern periode let's say  (max) 1650>  an autosomal trace from the middle ages or Roman times is negligible, would not be detectable. On that level: is there a visible Jewish trace beyond noise or not, it is: yes. So present. And therefore modern influx.

So fare so good, based on 1 and 2 I would say there is without doubt Jewish ancestry in my tree.

Then begins the more uncertain part. That's the part of autosomal analysis and matches etc. That's the part when we can discuss was it in generation 5 or still 7 etc. I consider that this is most likely  the case that Joannes had a Jewish NN father, because the my heritage match and the analysis by MH is pointing (in the case of the Danish Jewish match) with 65% certainty at crossing the lines via the father of Joannes. Of course 65% is not 100%. So we have to take in account that it was a generation later or earlier. All possible. But NOT seen 1,2 (the certainties) it wasn't a Jewish match.

Besides that it is also quit a condition that the Jewish ("the MENA provider") was there Wink  In 1809 contrair to a previous period (before 1800) there was- in 10  years time so fast grown-in the home town of my ancestors a Jewish community (124 persons)! So the potential GGG father was there. I guess the chance that we would met a Mesopotamian or Anatolian inhabitant person in Sappemeer in 1809 is quit negligible....And as said there the sons of Joannes didn't bear a name from his family only from mother's side. At that time in the Netherlands this was only the case when an extramarital situation was at stake... So I guess an entre in the tree was with (the father of) Joannes (1810-1900). But of course this is interpretation, other scenario's are not excluded.

Stays the point that it doesn't belong to the given set of Ashkenazim Y-DNA lines. I think we most consider that it came from Sephardim side, or through a mix with Ashkenazim. And we also must take in account that nearly all North Dutch Jews went to the holocaust and only a very few came back. So it's possible that a possible small line went extinct because of this....And E-L401 only survived because it became part of a RC family....
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