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R1b-L51 in Yamnaya: Lazaridis 2024
(06-15-2024, 09:51 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I'm much less interested in the genesis of Yamnaya (but not uninterested) than I am in how Yamnaya became Corded Ware. I am especially anxious for some traces of R1b-L151 in that process, so that we can say for sure that our L151-descended Y-DNA lineages have their source in Yamnaya. 

In other words, I want to know if I am right in thinking my own Y-DNA line descends from a Yamnaya ancestor. Once that is established, then the origin of Yamnaya will be that much more fascinating to me.

problem is the age of L151 may mean it occurred in the guys who were already the first CW people and therefore was never in Yamnaya, the last one of the ancestors in actual Yamnaya being P310. I think their is no doubt P310 will turn up in Yamnaya as it’s already turned up in Afanasievo. P310 was still a very young  clade when archaeology indicated Afanasievo migrations east likely happened right at the interface of the end of Repin/early Yamnaya c. 3300-3200BC. It can’t have been big or widespread at that date. So imo P310 must have been c.3300-3200BC no further west than the Volga. Assuming of course the FTDNA dates are right. Plus Yamnaya itself is rate before 3000BC anywhere and in Ukraine it looks that most Yamnaya arrived little before 3000BC and that’s how it looks for L51 Yamnaya. 

That only leaves a barrie window of a few generations where P310 could have been in Ukraine forest steppe Yamnaya prior to L151 occurring around the time of the earliest proto CW (X?) explorations. So the window of finding P310 yamnaya in Ukraine Yamnaya is v narrow - likely just 3000-2950BC. Imo it looks like P310 spent 3300-3000BC in final Repin and early Yamnaya in the Volga system then had an extremely short existance in western Ukraine yamnaya before it migrated NW and morphed into CW. So though it’d be nice to find Mr L151 or the immediate P310 ancestor in western Ukraine, it may be v hard to if it’s just a one or two generation window, 

It’s perhaps more likely that we will find P310 in early Yamnaya (and even final Repin) in the Volga system where if likely was 3300-3000BC. It’s just a wider window in which to find it. It’s appearance in Afanasievo when P310 was so young makes it very likely it was in the Volga system at the time in final Repin/early Yamnaya. It’s fascinating too that later Repin has been found close to the Kargaly copper deposits. The start of the likely Aganasievo migration east would have passed close to Kargaly too.  I’ve always suspected a major part of the eastward movements had at least partly a metal deposit exploring motivation. Maybe P310 and its immediate late L51 ancestor had a particular interest in metals from as early as c.3500BC and P310 retained that interest. The gaining of wheels around 3300BC of course would have made exploration and trade routes much easier. 

It makes me wonder if interest in metals might be a motivation factor for P310 and even L151 to have migrated to the hilly lands of west Ukraine/Moldova and then into south Poland and the Czech areas. All are not classical dry steppe lands but they would have seemed promising areas for metal deposits compared to the southern steppe. They would have known that copper deposits would like be located in the hills and mountains. Those that went east with Afanasievo certainly settled in some of the most metal rrich planes like Altai. Perhaps L151’s choice of arking north then west around the fringes of the carpathians rather than straight up to the north European plain was influenced by this too and why they didn’t seek out steppe-like environments like many Yamnaya groups did. 

Just a thought - the L51 Yamnaya groups that did head into the Balkans might have also been interested in metals and less limited to finding steppe clone environments than other Yamnays groups. Ones is from Serbia which is a metal region. Might be worth looking at the other L51s in the Balkans relationship to metal sources and routes. 

It would be very interesting if there was some sign of a hiatus or disruption of copper supply c. 3000-2800BC too. I must check Kalgary. Could be a motivation for L51 Yamnaya migration west.
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(06-15-2024, 10:53 PM)Jafety Wrote:
(06-13-2024, 01:25 PM)alanarchae Wrote: Yep the last big look at Repin radiocarbon dating concluded it started around 4000-3900BC. That was based on a Volga sampling of pottery charcoal inclusions. It looked pretty consistent too and likely not effected by reservoir effects seen on human bone. This didn’t sample the Don area which has been  usually suggested as the earliest area with Repin culture (though there is a recent paper on Russian which seems to question this but I can’t read it). If it is earlier on the Don or even coeval then it takes off just when Stedny Stog’s star fades.

Post here the link, I am gonna read and report back.

https://www.academia.edu/28691611/About_...n_English_
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(Yesterday, 12:36 PM)alanarchae Wrote:
(06-15-2024, 10:53 PM)Jafety Wrote:
(06-13-2024, 01:25 PM)alanarchae Wrote: Yep the last big look at Repin radiocarbon dating concluded it started around 4000-3900BC. That was based on a Volga sampling of pottery charcoal inclusions. It looked pretty consistent too and likely not effected by reservoir effects seen on human bone. This didn’t sample the Don area which has been  usually suggested as the earliest area with Repin culture (though there is a recent paper on Russian which seems to question this but I can’t read it). If it is earlier on the Don or even coeval then it takes off just when Stedny Stog’s star fades.

Post here the link, I am gonna read and report back.

https://www.academia.edu/28691611/About_...n_English_
This is also an important paper on the discovery that indicates pre Yamnaya Repin era use of Kargaly copper deposits.https://nav.jvolsu.cam/index.php/en/component/attachments/download/284 
I think the presence of Repin groups seasonally camped not far from the Kargaly copper area and working the extracts is very interesting and gives some hints at how v late Repin groups could easily have joined the trek east c. 3200BC with Afanasievo. They already were familiar with this area 2 or 3 centuries before the migration east. We know from ancient DNA that this migration included L51-P310, a class that had only come info existence maybe a century earlier at most and can’t have been a very big or widespread clan. I’d say that c.3200BC it was a small clan in one area until a subset headed east with Afanasievo. Those that didn’t migrate east seemed to stay behind for maybe 200 years and only migrated west into Ukraine etc around 3000BC.
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(Yesterday, 12:33 PM)alanarchae Wrote:
(06-15-2024, 09:51 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I'm much less interested in the genesis of Yamnaya (but not uninterested) than I am in how Yamnaya became Corded Ware. I am especially anxious for some traces of R1b-L151 in that process, so that we can say for sure that our L151-descended Y-DNA lineages have their source in Yamnaya. 

In other words, I want to know if I am right in thinking my own Y-DNA line descends from a Yamnaya ancestor. Once that is established, then the origin of Yamnaya will be that much more fascinating to me.

problem is the age of L151 may mean it occurred in the guys who were already the first CW people and therefore was never in Yamnaya, the last one of the ancestors in actual Yamnaya being P310. I think their is no doubt P310 will turn up in Yamnaya as it’s already turned up in Afanasievo. P310 was still a very young  clade when archaeology indicated Afanasievo migrations east likely happened right at the interface of the end of Repin/early Yamnaya c. 3300-3200BC. It can’t have been big or widespread at that date. So imo P310 must have been c.3300-3200BC no further west than the Volga. Assuming of course the FTDNA dates are right. Plus Yamnaya itself is rate before 3000BC anywhere and in Ukraine it looks that most Yamnaya arrived little before 3000BC and that’s how it looks for L51 Yamnaya. 

That only leaves a barrie window of a few generations where P310 could have been in Ukraine forest steppe Yamnaya prior to L151 occurring around the time of the earliest proto CW (X?) explorations. So the window of finding P310 yamnaya in Ukraine Yamnaya is v narrow - likely just 3000-2950BC. Imo it looks like P310 spent 3300-3000BC in final Repin and early Yamnaya in the Volga system then had an extremely short existance in western Ukraine yamnaya before it migrated NW and morphed into CW. So though it’d be nice to find Mr L151 or the immediate P310 ancestor in western Ukraine, it may be v hard to if it’s just a one or two generation window, 

It’s perhaps more likely that we will find P310 in early Yamnaya (and even final Repin) in the Volga system where if likely was 3300-3000BC. It’s just a wider window in which to find it. It’s appearance in Afanasievo when P310 was so young makes it very likely it was in the Volga system at the time in final Repin/early Yamnaya. It’s fascinating too that later Repin has been found close to the Kargaly copper deposits. The start of the likely Aganasievo migration east would have passed close to Kargaly too.  I’ve always suspected a major part of the eastward movements had at least partly a metal deposit exploring motivation. Maybe P310 and its immediate late L51 ancestor had a particular interest in metals from as early as c.3500BC and P310 retained that interest. The gaining of wheels around 3300BC of course would have made exploration and trade routes much easier. 

It makes me wonder if interest in metals might be a motivation factor for P310 and even L151 to have migrated to the hilly lands of west Ukraine/Moldova and then into south Poland and the Czech areas. All are not classical dry steppe lands but they would have seemed promising areas for metal deposits compared to the southern steppe. They would have known that copper deposits would like be located in the hills and mountains. Those that went east with Afanasievo certainly settled in some of the most metal rrich planes like Altai. Perhaps L151’s choice of arking north then west around the fringes of the carpathians rather than straight up to the north European plain was influenced by this too and why they didn’t seek out steppe-like environments like many Yamnaya groups did. 

Just a thought - the L51 Yamnaya groups that did head into the Balkans might have also been interested in metals and less limited to finding steppe clone environments than other Yamnays groups. Ones is from Serbia which is a metal region. Might be worth looking at the other L51s in the Balkans relationship to metal sources and routes. 

It would be very interesting if there was some sign of a hiatus or disruption of copper supply c. 3000-2800BC too. I must check Kalgary. Could be a motivation for L51 Yamnaya migration west.

We already have one P310 (aka L52) in Yamnaya in the new Lazaridis pre-print: I20499, Zabalj-Medisova-humka, Serbia, 2880-2633 calBC.

Of course, given that c14 date, he is probably derived for something downstream of P310. It will be nice if we ever find out what that is and also what the other four L51 Yamnayans are derived for downstream of L51.

FTDNA Discover dates the MRCA of L151 to 2950 BC, so that's close, really squarely in the midst of the CWC-X Horizon, which is dated by Piotr Włodarczak, Anna Linderholm, and Volker Heyd to 3000-2900 BC. So, we could be blessed with some CWC-X (i.e., Yamnaya in the process of becoming Corded Ware) or straight-up Yamnaya L151. But of course some Yamnaya P310 in the right places, along the routes into Central Europe north of the Carpathians, at the right times, would suit me just as well. It would tell pretty much the same story. 

I would also be very happy - ecstatic really - if some P312 would show up in Corded Ware, and especially if some L21 would show up in Corded Ware. Tears of joy would be in order for either of those events.
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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(Yesterday, 03:50 PM)alanarchae Wrote:
(Yesterday, 12:36 PM)alanarchae Wrote:
(06-15-2024, 10:53 PM)Jafety Wrote: Post here the link, I am gonna read and report back.

https://www.academia.edu/28691611/About_...n_English_
This is also an important paper on the discovery that indicates pre Yamnaya Repin era use of Kargaly copper deposits.https://nav.jvolsu.cam/index.php/en/component/attachments/download/284 
I think the presence of Repin groups seasonally camped not far from the Kargaly copper area and working the extracts is very interesting and gives some hints at how v late Repin groups could easily have joined the trek east c. 3200BC with Afanasievo. They already were familiar with this area 2 or 3 centuries before the migration east. We know from ancient DNA that this migration included L51-P310, a class that had only come info existence maybe a century earlier at most and can’t have been a very big or widespread clan. I’d say that c.3200BC it was a small clan in one area until a subset headed east with Afanasievo. Those that didn’t migrate east seemed to stay behind for maybe 200 years and only migrated west into Ukraine etc around 3000BC.

botched the link to Repin link to Kargaly. Hopefully this works https://nav.jvolsu.com/index.php/en/comp...wnload/284
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(Yesterday, 05:55 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote:
(Yesterday, 12:33 PM)alanarchae Wrote:
(06-15-2024, 09:51 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I'm much less interested in the genesis of Yamnaya (but not uninterested) than I am in how Yamnaya became Corded Ware. I am especially anxious for some traces of R1b-L151 in that process, so that we can say for sure that our L151-descended Y-DNA lineages have their source in Yamnaya. 

In other words, I want to know if I am right in thinking my own Y-DNA line descends from a Yamnaya ancestor. Once that is established, then the origin of Yamnaya will be that much more fascinating to me.

problem is the age of L151 may mean it occurred in the guys who were already the first CW people and therefore was never in Yamnaya, the last one of the ancestors in actual Yamnaya being P310. I think their is no doubt P310 will turn up in Yamnaya as it’s already turned up in Afanasievo. P310 was still a very young  clade when archaeology indicated Afanasievo migrations east likely happened right at the interface of the end of Repin/early Yamnaya c. 3300-3200BC. It can’t have been big or widespread at that date. So imo P310 must have been c.3300-3200BC no further west than the Volga. Assuming of course the FTDNA dates are right. Plus Yamnaya itself is rate before 3000BC anywhere and in Ukraine it looks that most Yamnaya arrived little before 3000BC and that’s how it looks for L51 Yamnaya. 

That only leaves a barrie window of a few generations where P310 could have been in Ukraine forest steppe Yamnaya prior to L151 occurring around the time of the earliest proto CW (X?) explorations. So the window of finding P310 yamnaya in Ukraine Yamnaya is v narrow - likely just 3000-2950BC. Imo it looks like P310 spent 3300-3000BC in final Repin and early Yamnaya in the Volga system then had an extremely short existance in western Ukraine yamnaya before it migrated NW and morphed into CW. So though it’d be nice to find Mr L151 or the immediate P310 ancestor in western Ukraine, it may be v hard to if it’s just a one or two generation window, 

It’s perhaps more likely that we will find P310 in early Yamnaya (and even final Repin) in the Volga system where if likely was 3300-3000BC. It’s just a wider window in which to find it. It’s appearance in Afanasievo when P310 was so young makes it very likely it was in the Volga system at the time in final Repin/early Yamnaya. It’s fascinating too that later Repin has been found close to the Kargaly copper deposits. The start of the likely Aganasievo migration east would have passed close to Kargaly too.  I’ve always suspected a major part of the eastward movements had at least partly a metal deposit exploring motivation. Maybe P310 and its immediate late L51 ancestor had a particular interest in metals from as early as c.3500BC and P310 retained that interest. The gaining of wheels around 3300BC of course would have made exploration and trade routes much easier. 

It makes me wonder if interest in metals might be a motivation factor for P310 and even L151 to have migrated to the hilly lands of west Ukraine/Moldova and then into south Poland and the Czech areas. All are not classical dry steppe lands but they would have seemed promising areas for metal deposits compared to the southern steppe. They would have known that copper deposits would like be located in the hills and mountains. Those that went east with Afanasievo certainly settled in some of the most metal rrich planes like Altai. Perhaps L151’s choice of arking north then west around the fringes of the carpathians rather than straight up to the north European plain was influenced by this too and why they didn’t seek out steppe-like environments like many Yamnaya groups did. 

Just a thought - the L51 Yamnaya groups that did head into the Balkans might have also been interested in metals and less limited to finding steppe clone environments than other Yamnays groups. Ones is from Serbia which is a metal region. Might be worth looking at the other L51s in the Balkans relationship to metal sources and routes. 

It would be very interesting if there was some sign of a hiatus or disruption of copper supply c. 3000-2800BC too. I must check Kalgary. Could be a motivation for L51 Yamnaya migration west.

We already have one P310 (aka L52) in Yamnaya in the new Lazaridis pre-print: I20499, Zabalj-Medisova-humka, Serbia, 2880-2633 calBC.

Of course, given that c14 date, he is probably derived for something downstream of P310. It will be nice if we ever find out what that is and also what the other four L51 Yamnayans are derived for downstream of L51.

FTDNA Discover dates the MRCA of L151 to 2950 BC, so that's close, really squarely in the midst of the CWC-X Horizon, which is dated by Piotr Włodarczak, Anna Linderholm, and Volker Heyd to 3000-2900 BC. So, we could be blessed with some CWC-X (i.e., Yamnaya in the process of becoming Corded Ware) or straight-up Yamnaya L151. But of course some Yamnaya P310 in the right places, along the routes into Central Europe north of the Carpathians, at the right times, would suit me just as well. It would tell pretty much the same story. 

I would also be very happy - ecstatic really - if some P312 would show up in Corded Ware, and especially if some L21 would show up in Corded Ware. Tears of joy would be in order for either of those events.

Thanks. I forgot L52 is P310! I think much of what you list could be found with a bigger sample and a decent resolution. I think most of the story can now be safely inferred but there is nothing like having proof. 

With P310 in both Afansievo and Yamnaya and P310 dated indirectly to 3300BC and Afansievo and Yamnaya being autosomally linked to the same Yamnaya signal and Yamnaya and Afanasievo always seeming to appear as the best fits in CW autosomal analysis, I think people still trying to say P310 is not from Yamnaya/Afanasievo are just not following and moving with the emerging evidence. P310 looks about the same age or maybe a century older than Afansievo and Yamnaya so there is no logic in expecting it in pre-Yamnaya/Afansievo cultures unless extremely marginally so (like terminal Repin). Even L51 is likely absent in Sredby Stog because if barely existed if at all until after the classical Sredny Stog phase was over.

 The period between L51 and P310 4000-3300BC falls entirely i’d that steppe hiatus stage and also almost perfectly correspond to the Repin phase which is untested. I would very much bet L51 was a Repin lineage 4000-3300BC. The strangely unsanpled culture despite many archaeologist seeing it as directly leading to Yamnaya and Afanasievo. I’ll eat my hat if they do a decent sample of Repin across is maximum expanse and both Z2103 and L51 (including P310) don’t turn up. The fact this obviously crucial culture has been mysteriously unsampled makes me suspect a paper dedicated to Repin DNA is in the pipeline. 
?
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That would be wonderful if there is a paper dedicated to Repin DNA in the pipeline.

Good news about R-L51 is that it has coverage in most ancient R-L23 specimens. The bad news is that it is G>A so susceptible to deamination. However, if there are multiple samples with the same result the deamination factor should be able to be ignored since it doesn't seem that the same positions are affected by deamination for every specimen. As a matter of fact all of the Z2103 specimens that I have looked at are ancestral for R-L51, as they should be, so that will be additional evidence whenever a terminal R-L51 shows up. Even low coverage specimens have a read for R-L51. As I have mentioned previously R-L23 has a low read rate.

I still have to look into the R-L51 phylogenetic equivalent of PF6535/MF656317 since I didn't include in previous analyses. It's not recurrent, afaik, and has 4 stars at YFull and is included in the FTDNA haplotree. It is A>G so not susceptible to deamination. PF6535/MF656317 seems to have a low read rate.
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