R1b-L51 in Yamnaya: Lazaridis 2024

[RCO]

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker were Indo-Europeanized local populations I think we mainly find J branches where they were born and are local in the Caucasus, Armenia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iran, the Caspian Sea - in the Southern source of CHG-IRAN that moved to the steppes and the Volga and Don rivers, where J1 is also found in all first stages of the steppe's ancient CHG-IRAN populations.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

I for one don't get the pride many take in a particular language group from an individual line perspective.

A simple raid from a neighboring group at anytime over the last 5000 years, could kidnap a ydna line and raise it to speak a totally different language.

[R.Rocca]

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker were Indo-Europeanized local populations I think we mainly find J branches where they were born and are local in the Caucasus, Armenia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iran, the Caspian Sea - in the Southern source of CHG-IRAN that moved to the steppes and the Volga and Don rivers, where J1 is also found in all first stages of the steppe's ancient CHG-IRAN populations.

Yes, you've mentioned that already, but this thread is about L51, Yamnaya and Lazaridis. They found and call out a clear association between Indo-Anatolia and the CLV genetic component which they in turn associate with R1b-V1636. Then they call out Yamnaya and R-L23 for the spread of Indo-European languages, R1a for Indo-Iranian etc.. Not a single mention of J1 in a paper titled "The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans".

And here are the daggers to the theory of J1 dominance that you've kept repeating for years:

"We identify the Yamnaya population as Proto-IE for several reasons."

"...no major pan-European archaeological or migratory phenomena that are tied to the postulated South Caucasus IA homeland ~6000 BCE can be discerned."

"DNA has traced back the ancestors of both Anatolian and IE speakers to the part of the CLV Cline that was NORTH of the Caucasus mountains."

[Anglesqueville]

I dont know how you missed all the fuss about J-L283 in this forum.  I take it as a good example on how little people in general care for haplogroups that are not their own I guess, wich is only natural . So yeah we were Yamnaya and shiet, peasants or not.

Here's how: I don't usually read the J subforum stuff. I barely have time to keep up with R1b stuff. I have to shepherd my time.

Thus far there's one J-L283 from a kurgan that Lazaridis et al said was either Cernavoda or Yamnaya. That's not much, and where is the J-L283 in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker? 

But okay, you've got one, and a pretty tall, sturdy one at that.

God if I could choose to have none I would. Steppe pastoralist were a bunch of phalus worshiper freaks who lost their virginity with stolen goats and whose leaders smoked weed to have "visions of the future". Farmers rule !! If J-L283 did not come from farmers its fine too, personally a long time ago i deateched my self esteem from my Y dna, in the end of the day J Haplo seem to come from the undestructable Dzdzuana highlanders, the true masters of our reality.

It is not easy to be sure of the tone of a written message when neither the reader nor the writer are English speakers. I hope I can detect humour in these comments, but I'm not sure. In any case, I urge you to avoid this type of sermon.

[Rufus191]

Here's how: I don't usually read the J subforum stuff. I barely have time to keep up with R1b stuff. I have to shepherd my time.

Thus far there's one J-L283 from a kurgan that Lazaridis et al said was either Cernavoda or Yamnaya. That's not much, and where is the J-L283 in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker? 

But okay, you've got one, and a pretty tall, sturdy one at that.

God if I could choose to have none I would. Steppe pastoralist were a bunch of phalus worshiper freaks who lost their virginity with stolen goats and whose leaders smoked weed to have "visions of the future". Farmers rule !! If J-L283 did not come from farmers its fine too, personally a long time ago i deateched my self esteem from my Y dna, in the end of the day J Haplo seem to come from the undestructable Dzdzuana highlanders, the true masters of our reality.

It is not easy to be sure of the tone of a written message when neither the reader nor the writer are English speakers. I hope I can detect humour in these comments, but I'm not sure. In any case, I urge you to avoid this type of sermon.

We don't want a place where no joking is allowed, that would be very tedious indeed . To get offended on the behalf of people who lived 5000 years ago, is probably something we should try and avoid, but in the interests of forum decorum, I think people should try and avoid blanket dismissal of one or other large grouping of peoples as backward, stupid, primitive, or something similar.

[RCO]

We are here debating about the origins of Yamnaya and Yamanya steppe's formation where CHG-IRAN and J1 were present and in my position J haplogroup was extremely decisive since the Mesolithic.

I agree with you that the authors (Lazaridis, Anthony, Recich) are not interested in explaining why J1 was found in the steppe in all major movements and populations
They do cite a J1 reference here in the Supplementary Information showing their ignorance because J1 does not fit their agenda :

  No mothers or daughters, and only one sister of the Khvalynsk II males were present, supporting its interpretation as a multi-generational burial plot for a male sodality, drawn from a limited set of families mostly affiliated with the R1b-V1636 Y-haplogroup, but including individuals with R1aM459 (like later Corded Ware), Q1a-L472 (like Murzikha to the north), 12a-L699 (a widespread Serednii Stih haplogroup), and J1-CTS1026 (unrelated to anyone).

The outliers are extremely important to understand the scientific facts with new embracing theories and approaches, J1-CTS1026 was not "unrelated to anyone", but related to a very interesting and central Indo-European clade.

J1-CTS1026 is here;
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...82833/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS1026/

We can find several Indo-European individuals moving from Europe, the Caucasus, Anatolia, West Asia, Central Asia, Mongolia (Afanasievo), so J1-CTS1026 is related to important Indo-European cultures.

Harvard's group and Reich know that CHG-IRAN can be the Southern source of Indo-European languages because they don't have more samples from the South, they only have fragments from the CLV cline, Maikop/Aknashen and Berezhnovka were a CHG-IRAN movement to the North and to the Volga occurred, they have never investigated the Southeastern Caspian Sea, Northwestern Iran, new regions in the Southern Caucasus where they shall get more appropriate samples to explain Maikop, Aknashen and Berezhnovka formations and compositions. 

So, the question about J1's Indo-European origins in the steppe is still open and new surprises may come with new samples from the South and Caspian Sea. I have been investigating J1 clades from Armenia, Iran and the Caspian Sea and I know they had a relatively large population from an Ancient Iranian population because they still have ancient phylogenetic nodes related to the Neolithic, Eneolithic and Bronze Age in the region 

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker were Indo-Europeanized local populations I think we mainly find J branches where they were born and are local in the Caucasus, Armenia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iran, the Caspian Sea - in the Southern source of CHG-IRAN that moved to the steppes and the Volga and Don rivers, where J1 is also found in all first stages of the steppe's ancient CHG-IRAN populations.

Yes, you've mentioned that already, but this thread is about L51, Yamnaya and Lazaridis. They found and call out a clear association between Indo-Anatolia and the CLV genetic component which they in turn associate with R1b-V1636. Then they call out Yamnaya and R-L23 for the spread of Indo-European languages, R1a for Indo-Iranian etc.. Not a single mention of J1 in a paper titled "The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans".

And here are the daggers to the theory of J1 dominance that you've kept repeating for years:

"We identify the Yamnaya population as Proto-IE for several reasons."

"...no major pan-European archaeological or migratory phenomena that are tied to the postulated South Caucasus IA homeland ~6000 BCE can be discerned."

"DNA has traced back the ancestors of both Anatolian and IE speakers to the part of the CLV Cline that was NORTH of the Caucasus mountains."

[alanarchae]

this thread went weird. Can we return to normal now please?

[Sephesakueu]

God if I could choose to have none I would. Steppe pastoralist were a bunch of phalus worshiper freaks who lost their virginity with stolen goats and whose leaders smoked weed to have "visions of the future". Farmers rule !! If J-L283 did not come from farmers its fine too, personally a long time ago i deateched my self esteem from my Y dna, in the end of the day J Haplo seem to come from the undestructable Dzdzuana highlanders, the true masters of our reality.

It is not easy to be sure of the tone of a written message when neither the reader nor the writer are English speakers. I hope I can detect humour in these comments, but I'm not sure. In any case, I urge you to avoid this type of sermon.

We don't want a place where no joking is allowed, that would be very tedious indeed . To get offended on the behalf of people who lived 5000 years ago, is probably something we should try and avoid, but in the interests of forum decorum, I think people should try and avoid blanket dismissal of one or other large grouping of peoples as backward, stupid, primitive, or something similar.

I totaly agree , sorry for the lack of politeness.  I just allowed for the tricksters inside to act once acused of "Indo euro Y dna wannabism "(a serious mental condition) when I was not even talking about myself or my Y dna.
Anyway, the best for you all,I am stopping here.

[Vinitharya]

Think it might be an idea to stop bringing up posters haplogroups as if it makes some sort of difference.

Straight from Ruykendo's signature where he quotes an old post from Anthrogenica, where a member suggested the R1a group fight the R1b to settle once and for all who the superman haplogroup was.

I like the Ukrainian farm boys my group is bringing to the fight, but then most of my male ancestors (besides the male line) were R1b, so we'd be beating up my autosomal kin.

[jdean]

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker were Indo-Europeanized local populations 

?????
: )

[Kale]

We are here debating about the origins of Yamnaya and Yamanya steppe's formation where CHG-IRAN and J1 were present and in my position J haplogroup was extremely decisive since the Mesolithic.

I agree with you that the authors (Lazaridis, Anthony, Recich) are not interested in explaining why J1 was found in the steppe in all major movements and populations

May I ask a few questions to better understand your position?
- Just to be clear, you think PPIE was South of the Caucasus, and that the PPIE/PIE/IE bearers in CLV were their Southern ancestry component? (whom I think none would contest would have been predominantly y-hg J)
- Do you think PIE spread from the CLV population, or that CLV represents some subset of IE languages? If the latter, which stage was CLV, and who spread the earlier stages?

[jdean]

Here's how: I don't usually read the J subforum stuff. I barely have time to keep up with R1b stuff. I have to shepherd my time.

Thus far there's one J-L283 from a kurgan that Lazaridis et al said was either Cernavoda or Yamnaya. That's not much, and where is the J-L283 in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker? 

But okay, you've got one, and a pretty tall, sturdy one at that.

God if I could choose to have none I would. Steppe pastoralist were a bunch of phalus worshiper freaks who lost their virginity with stolen goats and whose leaders smoked weed to have "visions of the future". Farmers rule !! If J-L283 did not come from farmers its fine too, personally a long time ago i deateched my self esteem from my Y dna, in the end of the day J Haplo seem to come from the undestructable Dzdzuana highlanders, the true masters of our reality.

It is not easy to be sure of the tone of a written message when neither the reader nor the writer are English speakers. I hope I can detect humour in these comments, but I'm not sure. In any case, I urge you to avoid this type of sermon.

TBH it's not exactly a walk in the park when English is your first language either ?

[rmstevens2]

this thread went weird. Can we return to normal now please?

I think a good guide to normal would be to recall the title of this thread and its location - in the R1b-L51 subforum. 

If we stuck to R1b-L51 in Yamnaya, things might settle down nicely.

[rmstevens2]

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker were Indo-Europeanized local populations . . .

Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware in northern Europe, but just how and where do you think Corded Ware was "Indo-Europeanized"? And what sort of population was "Indo-Europeanized" to become Corded Ware? What locality were they "local" to? And who did the Indo-Europeanizing?

You really should do some reading about Corded Ware.

The current thinking (and I agree with it) is that Corded Ware was the product of Yamnaya males mixing with GAC females, but those males also must have brought along many of their own Yamnaya females, because the early Corded Ware guys (most of whom were R1b-L151) clustered with Yamnaya autosomally. It took a few generations for the steppe ancestry of their descendants to be diluted down to ~75%. 

By far most of the IE languages spoken in the world today are the product of Corded Ware migrations and those of the successor cultures it spun off. Most of the "Indo-Europeanizing" that was done everywhere it was done was done by Corded Ware people and their descendants. 

I don't want to argue about non-R1 Y-DNA haplogroups that are very scarce in any known IE populations. That would be off topic.

[Jack Johnson]

What do you think of the R-Z2118 found in the Cetina Culture? It's surrounded by J2B2-L283s which are clearly accompanied by Yamnaya RZ2103s.

Some thought it was an Italic migrant going back, but that seems unlikely to me. It could be BB or maybe a Yamnaya remnant.

The problem with the Cetina culture is that it's too late to use to draw conclusions about early Indo-Europeans. 

Hard to say what to make of it. As I understand it, Cetina autosomal DNA was mostly EEF (~60%) but with about 33% WSH. 

Thus far, no J-M283 has turned up in Yamnaya, Corded Ware, or Bell Beaker, but maybe it will eventually. I honestly don't know what the ultimate source of the J-M283 in the Bronze Age Balkans is. 

That Z2118 (PF7589) probably represents a Y-chromosome descendant of the men who provided the WSH element in Cetina.

Not getting your point. We have a kurgan site with this mixture R1b/J2B2-L283. These are clearly together from Yamnaya.

But yeah, I'm thinking RZ2118 might just be the "southern L51".

Which samples and which site? A proto-Yamnaya type group with both would be very interesting.