Languages, ethnicities and religions also have genetic components and continuities because they are inherited and culturally associated with genetic components of long-lasting effects (longue durée).
We can observe in the same haplogroup different clades with completely different origins.
Let's observe some Portuguese and Brazilian Y-DNA J1 branches in the Westernmost part of Eurasia:
Heraclitus the philosopher conceptualized War and Dialectics, we are the product of past wars. Our State, Size of Territory, Language, Ethnicity and Religion
Heraclitus's famous sayings highlights the idea that the unity of opposites is also a conflict of opposites: "War is father of all and king of all; and some he manifested as gods, some as men; some he made slaves, some free"; war is a creative tension that brings things into existence !
(09-14-2024, 07:40 AM)Jafety Wrote: Afanasievo likely spoke normal Proto-IE then admixed to local Siberian Q people - probably Yeniseian Ket type and later also got under N and C Uralic/Altaic influences before it evolved into the attested Tocharian. So any substrate features should come from these types of languages not NEC. I assume if there are typological similarities between NEC and Tocharian that should come from PIE-NEC contacts
and did the Tarim WSHG not participate in the ethnogenesis of the Tocharians? I just wasn't interested in this question
Likely yes. Afanasievo is more or less pure Yamnaya but then Chemurchek culture is already integrating locals, also likely Tarim WSHG. What they seem to have passed by/ avoided was Urals-Tyumen WSHG
(09-14-2024, 07:40 AM)Jafety Wrote: Afanasievo likely spoke normal Proto-IE then admixed to local Siberian Q people - probably Yeniseian Ket type and later also got under N and C Uralic/Altaic influences before it evolved into the attested Tocharian. So any substrate features should come from these types of languages not NEC. I assume if there are typological similarities between NEC and Tocharian that should come from PIE-NEC contacts
and did the Tarim WSHG not participate in the ethnogenesis of the Tocharians? I just wasn't interested in this question
Likely yes. Afanasievo is more or less pure Yamnaya but then Chemurchek culture is already integrating locals, also likely Tarim WSHG. What they seem to have passed by/ avoided was Urals-Tyumen WSHG
Do you think that the Tarim people had a Ket language, close to it, or in the same language branch?
Seems like Afansievo just moved through Urals and west Kazakhstan without stopping
First stop was east Kazakhstan, then Altai and into Mongolia and Xingjiang. At some point they must have pushed the Tarim BA folk along in front of them
I think we can all agree that IE languages individually and even as groups are outcomes of processes that went on long beyond the common core IE node of c. 3300BC. Proto Greek is likely over 1000 years younger, as likely were nodes like Indo-Iranian or Italo-Celtic. A hell of a lot goes on in a 1000year span both by pure chance/drift/events etc and mixing/interacting. It seems to me that while some proto languages or sub branches nodes look likely to have existed by maybe 2200BC (give or take a century), it the stages been common core IE c. 3300BC and 2500BC is unknown. Though I do think the basic model of fission agreed by most is correct. I think it’s important to see clean branching as moments when a group of IEs move beyond the euro steppe core area to somewhere where contact with the iE homeland is no longer possible or frequent.
Common Late/core IE - developed by 3300BC
1st branch off - Afansievo - likely leading tocharian (mostly Z2103 and P310
2nd branch off -CW - c.2900sBC, likely NW IE branch (P310-L151 and R1a)
3rd branch off - likely the Fatyanovo-Avashebo-Sintashta group
Later branching leading to Armenian and Greek for example likely came from groups who had remained within the steppe core longer or at least within regular communication. Likely at the tail end of yamaya/catacomb etc. I presume that many if not all of old Balkans IE language block emerged in this twilight of Yamnaya era in the western steppes and eastern Balkans.
09-14-2024, 06:30 PM (This post was last modified: 09-14-2024, 06:32 PM by Konieczny.)
(09-14-2024, 04:24 PM)alanarchae Wrote: I think we can all agree that IE languages individually and even as groups are outcomes of processes that went on long beyond the common core IE node of c. 3300BC. Proto Greek is likely over 1000 years younger, as likely were nodes like Indo-Iranian or Italo-Celtic. A hell of a lot goes on in a 1000year span both by pure chance/drift/events etc and mixing/interacting. It seems to me that while some proto languages or sub branches nodes look likely to have existed by maybe 2200BC (give or take a century), it the stages been common core IE c. 3300BC and 2500BC is unknown. Though I do think the basic model of fission agreed by most is correct. I think it’s important to see clean branching as moments when a group of IEs move beyond the euro steppe core area to somewhere where contact with the iE homeland is no longer possible or frequent.
Common Late/core IE - developed by 3300BC
1st branch off - Afansievo - likely leading tocharian (mostly Z2103 and P310
2nd branch off -CW - c.2900sBC, likely NW IE branch (P310-L151 and R1a)
3rd branch off - likely the Fatyanovo-Avashebo-Sintashta group
Later branching leading to Armenian and Greek for example likely came from groups who had remained within the steppe core longer or at least within regular communication. Likely at the tail end of yamaya/catacomb etc. I presume that many if not all of old Balkans IE language block emerged in this twilight of Yamnaya era in the western steppes and eastern Balkans.
A hypothetical question.
If P310 and Z2103 plus R1a from Corded Ware and Fatyanovo R1a were sitting at a campfire in early Corded Ware , would any of them have known about the existence of P310 and Z2103 in Afanasievo, or the direction to the Kargaly copper fields or the grape/wine growing regions in Georgia? Why about Eastern Bell Beaker Z2103 and P310 would they have known about the regions and cultures above?
(09-14-2024, 09:38 AM)Арсен Wrote: and did the Tarim WSHG not participate in the ethnogenesis of the Tocharians? I just wasn't interested in this question
Likely yes. Afanasievo is more or less pure Yamnaya but then Chemurchek culture is already integrating locals, also likely Tarim WSHG. What they seem to have passed by/ avoided was Urals-Tyumen WSHG
Do you think that the Tarim people had a Ket language, close to it, or in the same language branch?
Not sure what evidence there is to suggest that. Tarim_EMBA seems like it was a pretty bottlenecked isolated population per Zhang et al (2021) while the best candidates for Proto-Yeniseians are Cisbaikal_LNBA, who are part of the Forest-Steppe Hunter-Gatherer Cline per the Zeng et al preprint
(09-14-2024, 04:24 PM)alanarchae Wrote: I think we can all agree that IE languages individually and even as groups are outcomes of processes that went on long beyond the common core IE node of c. 3300BC. Proto Greek is likely over 1000 years younger, as likely were nodes like Indo-Iranian or Italo-Celtic. A hell of a lot goes on in a 1000year span both by pure chance/drift/events etc and mixing/interacting. It seems to me that while some proto languages or sub branches nodes look likely to have existed by maybe 2200BC (give or take a century), it the stages been common core IE c. 3300BC and 2500BC is unknown. Though I do think the basic model of fission agreed by most is correct. I think it’s important to see clean branching as moments when a group of IEs move beyond the euro steppe core area to somewhere where contact with the iE homeland is no longer possible or frequent.
Common Late/core IE - developed by 3300BC
1st branch off - Afansievo - likely leading tocharian (mostly Z2103 and P310
2nd branch off -CW - c.2900sBC, likely NW IE branch (P310-L151 and R1a)
3rd branch off - likely the Fatyanovo-Avashebo-Sintashta group
Later branching leading to Armenian and Greek for example likely came from groups who had remained within the steppe core longer or at least within regular communication. Likely at the tail end of yamaya/catacomb etc. I presume that many if not all of old Balkans IE language block emerged in this twilight of Yamnaya era in the western steppes and eastern Balkans.
A hypothetical question.
If P310 and Z2103 plus R1a from Corded Ware and Fatyanovo R1a were sitting at a campfire in early Corded Ware , would any of them have known about the existence of P310 and Z2103 in Afanasievo, or the direction to the Kargaly copper fields or the grape/wine growing regions in Georgia? Why about Eastern Bell Beaker Z2103 and P310 would they have known about the regions and cultures above?
firstly, I didn’t say they necessarily had memory of the common ancestor of c.3-400 years earlier. So i’m not sure why you ask that. However, they easily could have if the tribes had druid or genealogies type figures in them. I think genealogies and tribal histories can be preserved quite well for many centuries. When your line of descent is the most important thing in your society, people are obsessed with it and preserve it. Only the genealogist would know crazy level of detail though . Likely others knew only the key bits of their genealogy (which subtanchas of the deep clan etc) and an outline saga version of the tribal history -likely just key events and famous deeds of the successful chiefs.
(09-14-2024, 04:24 PM)alanarchae Wrote: I think we can all agree that IE languages individually and even as groups are outcomes of processes that went on long beyond the common core IE node of c. 3300BC. Proto Greek is likely over 1000 years younger, as likely were nodes like Indo-Iranian or Italo-Celtic. A hell of a lot goes on in a 1000year span both by pure chance/drift/events etc and mixing/interacting. It seems to me that while some proto languages or sub branches nodes look likely to have existed by maybe 2200BC (give or take a century), it the stages been common core IE c. 3300BC and 2500BC is unknown. Though I do think the basic model of fission agreed by most is correct. I think it’s important to see clean branching as moments when a group of IEs move beyond the euro steppe core area to somewhere where contact with the iE homeland is no longer possible or frequent.
Common Late/core IE - developed by 3300BC
1st branch off - Afansievo - likely leading tocharian (mostly Z2103 and P310
2nd branch off -CW - c.2900sBC, likely NW IE branch (P310-L151 and R1a)
3rd branch off - likely the Fatyanovo-Avashebo-Sintashta group
Later branching leading to Armenian and Greek for example likely came from groups who had remained within the steppe core longer or at least within regular communication. Likely at the tail end of yamaya/catacomb etc. I presume that many if not all of old Balkans IE language block emerged in this twilight of Yamnaya era in the western steppes and eastern Balkans.
A hypothetical question.
If P310 and Z2103 plus R1a from Corded Ware and Fatyanovo R1a were sitting at a campfire in early Corded Ware , would any of them have known about the existence of P310 and Z2103 in Afanasievo, or the direction to the Kargaly copper fields or the grape/wine growing regions in Georgia? Why about Eastern Bell Beaker Z2103 and P310 would they have known about the regions and cultures above?
firstly, I didn’t say they necessarily had memory of the common ancestor of c.3-400 years earlier. So i’m not sure why you ask that. However, they easily could have if the tribes had druid or genealogies type figures in them. I think genealogies and tribal histories can be preserved quite well for many centuries. When your line of descent is the most important thing in your society, people are obsessed with it and preserve it. Only the genealogist would know crazy laevel of detail though . Likely others knew only the key bits of their genealogy (which subtanchas of the deep clan etc) and an outline saga version of the tribal history -likely just key events and famous deeds of the successful chiefs.
I was wondering because it seems that mobile pastoralist P310 and Z2103 were the main vector for the spread of Yersinia pestis- looking at Bell Beakers Afanasievo and Armenia sample. Could a trading network have been involved connecting P310 - Z2103 in Armenia Catacomb and Bell Beakers, and the spread of Yersinia pestis involved Dom2 horses somehow?
(09-14-2024, 04:24 PM)alanarchae Wrote: I think we can all agree that IE languages individually and even as groups are outcomes of processes that went on long beyond the common core IE node of c. 3300BC. Proto Greek is likely over 1000 years younger, as likely were nodes like Indo-Iranian or Italo-Celtic. A hell of a lot goes on in a 1000year span both by pure chance/drift/events etc and mixing/interacting. It seems to me that while some proto languages or sub branches nodes look likely to have existed by maybe 2200BC (give or take a century), it the stages been common core IE c. 3300BC and 2500BC is unknown. Though I do think the basic model of fission agreed by most is correct. I think it’s important to see clean branching as moments when a group of IEs move beyond the euro steppe core area to somewhere where contact with the iE homeland is no longer possible or frequent.
Common Late/core IE - developed by 3300BC
1st branch off - Afansievo - likely leading tocharian (mostly Z2103 and P310
2nd branch off -CW - c.2900sBC, likely NW IE branch (P310-L151 and R1a)
3rd branch off - likely the Fatyanovo-Avashebo-Sintashta group
Later branching leading to Armenian and Greek for example likely came from groups who had remained within the steppe core longer or at least within regular communication. Likely at the tail end of yamaya/catacomb etc. I presume that many if not all of old Balkans IE language block emerged in this twilight of Yamnaya era in the western steppes and eastern Balkans.
Would you also count Greek and Armenian under old Balkans IE? I'm wondering as to whether Armenian and those languages had already been separate for a long time or whether they all split from each around Moldova and then quickly went to where they would end up in the future (Aegean, Caucasus, etc.) while the languages were only diverged enough to be called dialects.
I see FTDNA discover have moved the TMRCA date of L151 back a bit to 3000BC. That is interesting because not only is that older than even the very earliest CW (Poland) but the vast majority of Yamnaya in Ukraine dates after 3000BC too. So, it pushes U151 back to the date when the vast bulk of Yamnaya was only starting to enter Ukraine (and quickly passed towards the Lower Danube/Balkans).
Its father P310 is still being dated to 3350BC which is v close to the earliest Yamnaya dates and probably slightly older. P310 is found in Afansievo, Yamnaya and CW and its hard to see any scenario where this wouldnt involve a common ancestoral cultural and place around 3300BC. So, given the significance of the L51-P310 clade in these cultures, I think the idea that Yamnaya/Afanasievo and CW only had some distant SS type era most recent common ancestor is just nonsense and a habit formed when we thought P310 was not in Yamnaya. And that also of course is also what those looking at autosomal DNA tell us. The steppe element in CW matches Yamnaya and Afanasievo best, not SS or any other group of that age that has been sampled to date.
A lot of people think FTDNA underestimates yDNA TMRCA ages slightly. If L151 ever was pushed back in date a century or two older than 3000BC then I would start to wonder if it might have been born somewhere in the Russian part of the steppe. That is where I strongly suspect P310 was born. P310 is in Afansievo already in 3200BC, only 150 years after its TMRCA, in Afanasievo in China! So, it seems extremely likely that it was in the common ancestor of Yamanaya, Afansievo and (at one remove) from CW c. 3300BC and likely shortly before that.
P310 is a useful tracer I think because its roughly the same age as Yamanya and Afansievo and therefore without even further resolution you know what you are seeing is a relatively early migration c. 3300-2900BC when it turns up in ancient DNA. Nobody has ever suggested a back migration west of Afanasievo so it kind of demands a position within the Yamnaya origin area. It also shares a presence with Z2103 as the only significant other in Afanasievo and Yamnaya so that kind of suggests that, despite the L23 common ancestor of Z2103 and L51 (and its subclade P310) being 8-900 years earlier, the pair of them remained close to each other and intimately linked across the 4250-3300 and even 3000BC.
As to where that was, its not yet been found in sampling but the autosomal signal does look rather more like it originated around the Don kind of zone somewhere rather than from Eneolithic Volga-Urals. Its lack of mixing with Maykop and Steppe Maykpp would tent to agree with that kind of location and go against one too close to the Caucasus-steppe interface. That sounds a lot like it resided in Repin. its a terrible pity there isnt agreement on the date, origin point and nature of Repin. It traditionally was placed around 4000-3300BC and the distribution of Repin pottery ranges from the Dnieper to the Ural but with especially strong representation in the middle Don and Donets areas as well as the Volga-Urals. It seems most likely the pottery in terms of typology has an origin on the Don and spread from there - well that is what has been traditionally argued. Certainly. whatever its origin point and chronology it means something as potttery and pottery ideas dont spread by themselves. It certainly looks like it shows movement of some sort linking the middle Don/Donets to the Volga-Urals and in a timeslot that ends in early Yamnaya. The dating of its beginning is much more debated with everything from about 3900BC to 3300BC suggested. My own feeling is it most likely shows connections c. 3500-3300BC and it most likely was a west to east spread initially. Because P310 seems particularly strongly represented in Afanasievo which has been considered to have a significant Repin flavour in its basically early Yamnaya nature, I have a funny feeling that Repin pottery was especially connected with their territory thought its also clear that P310 and Z2103 were still closely associated in the 3300-3000BC era.
Repin pottery distribution running from the Donets to the Ural along a similar latitude looks like it represents a network. I have posted this before but the creation of a network like that in the period leading up to 3300BC looks a lot to me like it could have been linked to groups interested in the products of Kargaly copper deposits. They didnt necessarily have to be the actual miners of it. Thats not where status and wealth necessarily lies. But they may have wanted to control it as middlemen. This interests me as its not the same network or group as the CLV ones who seem IMO to likely have been linked to the old copper network of 4400-3900BC. Its not got the kind of distribution that looks like a Volga-Caucasus-Lower Don network was key. its more like a network that stretches from the Ural across the Volga to the middle Don and Donets, eventually (perhaps later) extending to the Dnieper. Its more northern and direct east-west/west-east looking than the Eneolithic route of the Balkans copper network and the CLV pattern. The Repin pottery pattern suggests to me a land based pattern which involved crossing the lower part of the Middle Don and the Volga maybe around Saratov then Ural and Orensberg. Actually looking at river system maps, the best way to make to the link between the Volga and Ural is heading a little north and using the Samara which links them and prevents having to do a large journey through very arid land between the Volga and Ural.
P310- found in
Afanasievo culture-
Yamnaya culture-
Catacomb culture-
Corded Ware culture-
Bell Beaker culture-
Afanasievo P310 burials have been found as far as Shatar Chuluu in central Mongolia, confirming a further expansion about 1,500 km beyond the Altai Mountains.
This chart compares Saka and Tocharian B with Latin, another Indo-European language; except for English “ask,” all other English words listed here are also cognate with the Latin and the languages of the Tarim Basin, that is, they derive from the same Proto-Indo-European source.
Saka --Tocharian B-- Latin(P310)-- English--German(P310)(added)
duva-- wi --duo-- two-- zwei
drai-- trai-- tres-- three-- drei
tcahora-- stwer-- quattuor-- four-- vier
hauda-- sukt-- septem --seven-- sieben
sata-- kante-- centum-- hundred-- hundert
päte-- pacer-- pater-- father--vater
mata-- macer-- mater-- mother--mutter
brate-- procer-- frater-- brother--bruder
assa-- yakwe-- equus-- horse--pferd
gguhi-- keu-- bos-- cow--kuh
bar-- pär-- fero-- bear (carry)
puls-- park-- posco- ask
Quote:Another linking trait is that some of the burials lie on their backs but with their legs flexed: this peculiar posture is also known both in the Afanasievo culture and among the burials of the European steppelands, but it is very rare anywhere else. Similarly, the footed bowls—interpreted as lamps in China but as “censers” in the Afanasievo culture—are also linked to the east European steppe. Finally, the Qiemu’erqieke, Afanasievo, and European steppe cultures all share a tradition of erecting stone anthropomorphic stelae. Although the Qiemu’erqieke is located in the far north of the Jungghar Basin, similar pottery has been recovered from the site of Xikan’erzi, not far from both Ürümchi and the territory of the Tocharians.
09-16-2024, 09:12 PM (This post was last modified: 09-16-2024, 09:44 PM by CowboyHG.)
(09-16-2024, 12:59 PM)alanarchae Wrote: I see FTDNA discover have moved the TMRCA date of L151 back a bit to 3000BC. That is interesting because not only is that older than even the very earliest CW (Poland) but the vast majority of Yamnaya in Ukraine dates after 3000BC too. So, it pushes U151 back to the date when the vast bulk of Yamnaya was only starting to enter Ukraine (and quickly passed towards the Lower Danube/Balkans).
Its father P310 is still being dated to 3350BC which is v close to the earliest Yamnaya dates and probably slightly older. P310 is found in Afansievo, Yamnaya and CW and its hard to see any scenario where this wouldnt involve a common ancestoral cultural and place around 3300BC. So, given the significance of the L51-P310 clade in these cultures, I think the idea that Yamnaya/Afanasievo and CW only had some distant SS type era most recent common ancestor is just nonsense and a habit formed when we thought P310 was not in Yamnaya. And that also of course is also what those looking at autosomal DNA tell us. The steppe element in CW matches Yamnaya and Afanasievo best, not SS or any other group of that age that has been sampled to date.
A lot of people think FTDNA underestimates yDNA TMRCA ages slightly. If L151 ever was pushed back in date a century or two older than 3000BC then I would start to wonder if it might have been born somewhere in the Russian part of the steppe. That is where I strongly suspect P310 was born. P310 is in Afansievo already in 3200BC, only 150 years after its TMRCA, in Afanasievo in China! So, it seems extremely likely that it was in the common ancestor of Yamanaya, Afansievo and (at one remove) from CW c. 3300BC and likely shortly before that.
P310 is a useful tracer I think because its roughly the same age as Yamanya and Afansievo and therefore without even further resolution you know what you are seeing is a relatively early migration c. 3300-2900BC when it turns up in ancient DNA. Nobody has ever suggested a back migration west of Afanasievo so it kind of demands a position within the Yamnaya origin area. It also shares a presence with Z2103 as the only significant other in Afanasievo and Yamnaya so that kind of suggests that, despite the L23 common ancestor of Z2103 and L51 (and its subclade P310) being 8-900 years earlier, the pair of them remained close to each other and intimately linked across the 4250-3300 and even 3000BC.
Obviously CW didn’t exist as a separate entity way back in 4000 bc, it began to emerge after 3000
But until we find out where R1a-M17 and how it joined CW, we don’t have the full picture
Claims based just on P310 or the recent hysteria about IBD aren’t enough.
![[Image: %D0%9A%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%...%D0%BB.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/%D0%9A%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB.png)