The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans

[Konieczny]

..while J1 is less common but still present.

You must be joking or you don't understand the genetics of the Caucasus

What about the connection between R1b-L51?

  Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-L51 is a subclade of R1b, which is one of the most common Y-DNA haplogroups in Western Europe today. The connection between the oldest samples of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in the Corded Ware culture 2900-2500 BCE  and the Yamnaya R1b-L51 Balkan culture, is a fascinating topic that highlights the interactions and migrations of ancient populations.
Haplogroups in Context:

1. Yamnaya Culture:
   • The Yamnaya culture, which flourished from around 3300 to 2600 BCE on the Eurasian Steppe, is associated with Y-DNA haplogroups  R1b-L23. Direct evidence of R1b-L51 in the Yamnaya culture is now well-established. The Yamnaya culture is known for its high frequency of haplogroup R1b-Z2103,  including L51, have been definitively identified in their remains.
     
2. Corded Ware Culture:
   • The Corded Ware culture, which spread across Europe from approximately 2900 to 2300 BCE, is associated with a high frequency of haplogroup R1b-L51, particularly in its western and central regions. This subclade is a prominent component of the genetic makeup of many ancient European populations that are connected to the Corded Ware horizon.
     

Connection Between Yamnaya and Corded Ware:

1. Migration and Genetic Flow:
   • The connection between Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures is largely understood through the lens of migration and genetic flow. The Yamnaya culture is often considered a major source of genetic influence for later European cultures, including the Corded Ware culture. The migration of Yamnaya people into Europe is thought to have played a significant role in shaping the genetic landscape of the continent.
     
2. Haplogroup R1b Spread:
   • Haplogroup R1b, including its subclades like R1b-L51, is believed to have spread from the Eurasian Steppe into Europe with the migration of Yamnaya-related populations. The Yamnaya people, as they moved westward, carried R1b haplogroups with them, which eventually became a dominant genetic marker in various European cultures, including the Corded Ware culture.
     
3. Cultural and Genetic Integration:
   • As the Yamnaya-related populations moved into Europe and interacted with local populations, their genetic legacy became integrated into the populations of the Corded Ware culture. This integration led to the high frequency of R1b-L51 observed in the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker culture. 
     

Summary:
 Haplogroup R1b-L51 is directly confirmed in the Yamnaya culture, the  R1b-Z2103 haplogroup found in the Yamnaya culture is closely related to the R1b-L51 subclade that is prevalent in the Corded Ware culture. The connection between these cultures is primarily understood through the migration and genetic integration of Yamnaya-related populations into Europe, which contributed to the distribution and prevalence of R1b-L51 in the Corded Ware and subsequent European cultures.


4o min

[Арсен]

..while J1 is less common but still present.

You must be joking or you don't understand the genetics of the Caucasus

What about the connection between R1b-L51?

  Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-L51 is a subclade of R1b, which is one of the most common Y-DNA haplogroups in Western Europe today. The connection between the oldest samples of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in the Corded Ware culture 2900-2500 BCE  and the Yamnaya R1b-L51 Balkan culture, is a fascinating topic that highlights the interactions and migrations of ancient populations.
Haplogroups in Context:

1. Yamnaya Culture:
   • The Yamnaya culture, which flourished from around 3300 to 2600 BCE on the Eurasian Steppe, is associated with Y-DNA haplogroups  R1b-L23. Direct evidence of R1b-L51 in the Yamnaya culture is now well-established. The Yamnaya culture is known for its high frequency of haplogroup R1b-Z2103,  including L51, have been definitively identified in their remains.
     
2. Corded Ware Culture:
   • The Corded Ware culture, which spread across Europe from approximately 2900 to 2300 BCE, is associated with a high frequency of haplogroup R1b-L51, particularly in its western and central regions. This subclade is a prominent component of the genetic makeup of many ancient European populations that are connected to the Corded Ware horizon.
     

Connection Between Yamnaya and Corded Ware:

1. Migration and Genetic Flow:
   • The connection between Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures is largely understood through the lens of migration and genetic flow. The Yamnaya culture is often considered a major source of genetic influence for later European cultures, including the Corded Ware culture. The migration of Yamnaya people into Europe is thought to have played a significant role in shaping the genetic landscape of the continent.
     
2. Haplogroup R1b Spread:
   • Haplogroup R1b, including its subclades like R1b-L51, is believed to have spread from the Eurasian Steppe into Europe with the migration of Yamnaya-related populations. The Yamnaya people, as they moved westward, carried R1b haplogroups with them, which eventually became a dominant genetic marker in various European cultures, including the Corded Ware culture.
     
3. Cultural and Genetic Integration:
   • As the Yamnaya-related populations moved into Europe and interacted with local populations, their genetic legacy became integrated into the populations of the Corded Ware culture. This integration led to the high frequency of R1b-L51 observed in the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker culture. 
     

Summary:
 Haplogroup R1b-L51 is directly confirmed in the Yamnaya culture, the  R1b-Z2103 haplogroup found in the Yamnaya culture is closely related to the R1b-L51 subclade that is prevalent in the Corded Ware culture. The connection between these cultures is primarily understood through the migration and genetic integration of Yamnaya-related populations into Europe, which contributed to the distribution and prevalence of R1b-L51 in the Corded Ware and subsequent European cultures.


4o min

J1 is predominantly widespread in the Eastern Caucasus, except for the Nakhs(Chechen, ingush), they have more J2, which has a founder effect.

[Konieczny]

You must be joking or you don't understand the genetics of the Caucasus

What about the connection between R1b-L51?

  Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-L51 is a subclade of R1b, which is one of the most common Y-DNA haplogroups in Western Europe today. The connection between the oldest samples of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in the Corded Ware culture 2900-2500 BCE  and the Yamnaya R1b-L51 Balkan culture, is a fascinating topic that highlights the interactions and migrations of ancient populations.
Haplogroups in Context:

1. Yamnaya Culture:
   • The Yamnaya culture, which flourished from around 3300 to 2600 BCE on the Eurasian Steppe, is associated with Y-DNA haplogroups  R1b-L23. Direct evidence of R1b-L51 in the Yamnaya culture is now well-established. The Yamnaya culture is known for its high frequency of haplogroup R1b-Z2103,  including L51, have been definitively identified in their remains.
     
2. Corded Ware Culture:
   • The Corded Ware culture, which spread across Europe from approximately 2900 to 2300 BCE, is associated with a high frequency of haplogroup R1b-L51, particularly in its western and central regions. This subclade is a prominent component of the genetic makeup of many ancient European populations that are connected to the Corded Ware horizon.
     

Connection Between Yamnaya and Corded Ware:

1. Migration and Genetic Flow:
   • The connection between Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures is largely understood through the lens of migration and genetic flow. The Yamnaya culture is often considered a major source of genetic influence for later European cultures, including the Corded Ware culture. The migration of Yamnaya people into Europe is thought to have played a significant role in shaping the genetic landscape of the continent.
     
2. Haplogroup R1b Spread:
   • Haplogroup R1b, including its subclades like R1b-L51, is believed to have spread from the Eurasian Steppe into Europe with the migration of Yamnaya-related populations. The Yamnaya people, as they moved westward, carried R1b haplogroups with them, which eventually became a dominant genetic marker in various European cultures, including the Corded Ware culture.
     
3. Cultural and Genetic Integration:
   • As the Yamnaya-related populations moved into Europe and interacted with local populations, their genetic legacy became integrated into the populations of the Corded Ware culture. This integration led to the high frequency of R1b-L51 observed in the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker culture. 
     

Summary:
 Haplogroup R1b-L51 is directly confirmed in the Yamnaya culture, the  R1b-Z2103 haplogroup found in the Yamnaya culture is closely related to the R1b-L51 subclade that is prevalent in the Corded Ware culture. The connection between these cultures is primarily understood through the migration and genetic integration of Yamnaya-related populations into Europe, which contributed to the distribution and prevalence of R1b-L51 in the Corded Ware and subsequent European cultures.


4o min

J1 is predominantly widespread in the Eastern Caucasus, except for the Nakhs(Chechen, ingush), they have more J2, which has a founder effect.

There are various studies with frequencies of R1b, R1a, J1 and J2. For example compare the frequency of R1b/R1a/J1/J2 between Chechen and Armenian language speakers. Armenian is classed as an  independent branch of the Indo-European language family, and has  R1b - R1a - J1/J2 as do Chechens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_hapl...e_Caucasus



  Chechen is a member of the North Caucasian language family, specifically belonging to the Nakh-Daghestanian (or Northeast Caucasian) group. Here’s a detailed overview of the Chechen language:
1. Classification:

• Language Family: North Caucasian
  
• Subfamily: Nakh-Daghestanian
  
• Branch: Nakh
  

  The Armenian language is an independent branch of the Indo-European language family, with a rich history and unique characteristics. Here’s an overview of the Armenian language:
1. Classification:

• Language Family: Indo-European
  
• Branch: Armenian (an independent branch within the Indo-European family)
  

[Арсен]

@Konieczny
I don't know about r1b and j1/j2 contacts, I just corrected your comment in which you said that j1 is less common in the Caucasus

[Konieczny]

A new great palaeogenetic article by Gabriel Solans, on Indo-European languages assessing the date & place of birth of most of the major branches, the links between them & the major Haplogroups.
Forthcoming but available now on Academia.

well that’s out of date already as L51 (L52/P310) is also known in Afanasievo, Yamnaya and the around CW. In fact the P310/L52 (tmrca c. 3350BC) is in all three in the 3300-2800BC era. I find that interesting as it suggested P310 was among the common ancestor of Afansievo, Yamnaya and CW c.3300BC. The clade is only a couple of generations younger than 3300BC . So it’s impossible for P310 to be down to some more distant root. It literally only started to exist just before the earliest Yamnaya and Afansievo dating c. 3300BC. So it had to live in an immediate common ancestor and must have been a case of maybe first cousins or not much more remote splitting with some wandering east to form Afanasievo and other close cousins staying put within Yamnaya and later moving west with it (with a side branch soon forming CW). P310 disproves the (imo already disproven) idea that it’s some older common ancestor like SS that links CW with Yamnaya. Every piece of evidence that exists points to L151 CW as being formed by  a splinter off Yamnaya not some more distant common ancestor.

Afanasievo R1b -Z2103 and P310ook like the best candidate for Tocharian. If true that means P310 spoke Tocharian or Proto Tocharian. Did Corded Ware Poland P310 speak Tocharian?

[R.Rocca]

A new great palaeogenetic article by Gabriel Solans, on Indo-European languages assessing the date & place of birth of most of the major branches, the links between them & the major Haplogroups.
Forthcoming but available now on Academia.

well that’s out of date already as L51 (L52/P310) is also known in Afanasievo, Yamnaya and the around CW. In fact the P310/L52 (tmrca c. 3350BC) is in all three in the 3300-2800BC era. I find that interesting as it suggested P310 was among the common ancestor of Afansievo, Yamnaya and CW c.3300BC. The clade is only a couple of generations younger than 3300BC . So it’s impossible for P310 to be down to some more distant root. It literally only started to exist just before the earliest Yamnaya and Afansievo dating c. 3300BC. So it had to live in an immediate common ancestor and must have been a case of maybe first cousins or not much more remote splitting with some wandering east to form Afanasievo and other close cousins staying put within Yamnaya and later moving west with it (with a side branch soon forming CW). P310 disproves the (imo already disproven) idea that it’s some older common ancestor like SS that links CW with Yamnaya. Every piece of evidence that exists points to L151 CW as being formed by  a splinter off Yamnaya not some more distant common ancestor.

Afanasievo R1b -Z2103 and P310ook like the best candidate for Tocharian. If true that means P310 spoke Tocharian or Proto Tocharian. Did Corded Ware Poland P310 speak Tocharian?

Tocharian is a language that is attested more than 3000 years after Afanasievo. Outside of saying some early Indo-European was spoken by Afanasievo, anything else is a stretch.

[Арсен]

well that’s out of date already as L51 (L52/P310) is also known in Afanasievo, Yamnaya and the around CW. In fact the P310/L52 (tmrca c. 3350BC) is in all three in the 3300-2800BC era. I find that interesting as it suggested P310 was among the common ancestor of Afansievo, Yamnaya and CW c.3300BC. The clade is only a couple of generations younger than 3300BC . So it’s impossible for P310 to be down to some more distant root. It literally only started to exist just before the earliest Yamnaya and Afansievo dating c. 3300BC. So it had to live in an immediate common ancestor and must have been a case of maybe first cousins or not much more remote splitting with some wandering east to form Afanasievo and other close cousins staying put within Yamnaya and later moving west with it (with a side branch soon forming CW). P310 disproves the (imo already disproven) idea that it’s some older common ancestor like SS that links CW with Yamnaya. Every piece of evidence that exists points to L151 CW as being formed by  a splinter off Yamnaya not some more distant common ancestor.

Afanasievo R1b -Z2103 and P310ook like the best candidate for Tocharian. If true that means P310 spoke Tocharian or Proto Tocharian. Did Corded Ware Poland P310 speak Tocharian?

Tocharian is a language that is attested more than 3000 years after Afanasievo. Outside of saying some early Indo-European was spoken by Afanasievo, anything else is a stretch.

I think that earlier Tocharnian languages were influenced by North Caucasian languages

[HurrianFam]

I think that earlier Tocharian languages were influenced by North Caucasian languages

Based on what? Several of Tocharian's defining features (like merging all the stop consonant series, complete lack of preverbs) are almost exactly opposite the traits that Caucasian languages tend to share (rich consonant inventories, directional preverbs).

[Арсен]

I think that earlier Tocharian languages were influenced by North Caucasian languages

Based on what? Several of Tocharian's defining features (like merging all the stop consonant series, complete lack of preverbs) are almost exactly opposite the traits that Caucasian languages tend to share (rich consonant inventories, directional preverbs).

as you wrote above, the Tocharian languages are three thousand years younger than the Afanasyev culture (previously the Tocharian languages). I think this is a fairly long period during which the language could have transformed. Don't you think so?

[HurrianFam]

I think that earlier Tocharian languages were influenced by North Caucasian languages

Based on what? Several of Tocharian's defining features (like merging all the stop consonant series, complete lack of preverbs) are almost exactly opposite the traits that Caucasian languages tend to share (rich consonant inventories, directional preverbs).

as you wrote above, the Tocharian languages are three thousand years younger than the Afanasyev culture (previously the Tocharian languages). I think this is a fairly long period during which the language could have transformed. Don't you think so?

I mean, sure, though the first comment you mention was by R.Rocca, not me. I’m wondering what about Tocharian makes you think it was influenced by North Caucasian languages?

[Арсен]

Based on what? Several of Tocharian's defining features (like merging all the stop consonant series, complete lack of preverbs) are almost exactly opposite the traits that Caucasian languages tend to share (rich consonant inventories, directional preverbs).

as you wrote above, the Tocharian languages are three thousand years younger than the Afanasyev culture (previously the Tocharian languages). I think this is a fairly long period during which the language could have transformed. Don't you think so?

I mean, sure, though the first comment you mention was by R.Rocca, not me. I’m wondering what about Tocharian makes you think it was influenced by North Caucasian languages?

read somewhere that there was some kind of connection, I don’t know, I’am asking , maybe there are some details.

[Jafety]

Afanasievo likely spoke normal Proto-IE then admixed to local Siberian Q people - probably Yeniseian Ket type and later also got under N and C Uralic/Altaic influences before it evolved into the attested Tocharian. So any substrate features should come from these types of languages not NEC. I assume if there are typological similarities between NEC and Tocharian that should come from PIE-NEC contacts

[Jaska]

Afanasievo R1b -Z2103 and P310ook like the best candidate for Tocharian. If true that means P310 spoke Tocharian or Proto Tocharian. Did Corded Ware Poland P310 speak Tocharian?

Of course not. It is a serious methodological mistake to take a haplogroup and believe that its carriers at different time or in different place spoke the same language than the carrier of that haplogroup in some other time or place. You just have to look at any subhaplogroup which has a wider distribution, and you will find out that its modern carriers are speaking different languages. The situation was just the same in prehistorical times: people moved around and became assimilated in different language communities. We cannot predict language from DNA, because language is not inherited in DNA.

[Арсен]

Afanasievo likely spoke normal Proto-IE then admixed to local Siberian Q people - probably Yeniseian Ket type and later also got under N and C Uralic/Altaic influences before it evolved into the attested Tocharian. So any substrate features should come from these types of languages not NEC. I assume if there are typological similarities between NEC and Tocharian that should come from PIE-NEC contacts

and did the Tarim WSHG not participate in the ethnogenesis of the Tocharians? I just wasn't interested in this question

[Konieczny]

Afanasievo R1b -Z2103 and P310ook like the best candidate for Tocharian. If true that means P310 spoke Tocharian or Proto Tocharian. Did Corded Ware Poland P310 speak Tocharian?

Of course not. It is a serious methodological mistake to take a haplogroup and believe that its carriers at different time or in different place spoke the same language than the carrier of that haplogroup in some other time or place. You just have to look at any subhaplogroup which has a wider distribution, and you will find out that its modern carriers are speaking different languages. The situation was just the same in prehistorical times: people moved around and became assimilated in different language communities. We cannot predict language from DNA, because language is not inherited in DNA.

I don't agree. In this particular environment we have an example of a homogeneous ydna clan (Z2103/P310) that developed and or invented the tools, techniques, and  transportation to harvest the grasslands of the Steppe before any other ydna clan, by doing so they were able to expand  long distance Steppe pastoralism, and spread there ideas. The distance between Z2103/p310 in Afanasievo and Z2103/p310 the earliest Polish Corded Ware, and Eastern Bell Beaker groups explains how one group, the only group  at the time, could travel vast distance compared to other specific ydna clans and spread their use of the wheel vehicle and Dom2 horse.