The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans

[alanarchae]

Yes Gubs / Satanay gorge hunter gatherer already has CHG. Dates to 6000 or 5500 bc

Its really just a matter of how far back this goes. However, I am unaware of any strongly Caucasus links in the earlier Mesolithic of say 9000-7000BC.  Also worth recalling what an obstacle (unless you are in boats) that the extremely expanded Caspian/Aral/Manych, the dating of which seems to be being pushed younger by recent studies and certainly seems to include the while of the late upper Palaeolithic.  It and presumably the swampy aftermath that must have followed for some time afterwards before consolidation would seem to me to mean that south-north movement from the Caucausus or even from far to the east of the Caspian must have been inhibited until at least the start of the Mesolithic.  The northward extent must also have pushed viable east to west movement from Siberia northwards to the south Urals. That might explain the relatively northern trajectory that the pressure flaked microblades (probably linked to Butovo and P297/M73  in the Baltics) seemed to take in the very end of the Palaeolithic/ start of the Mesolithic.  Movement both east to west further south and from south to north must have been much trickier in the final part of the Palaeolithic into the early Mesolithic.  So, I think southern elements are not going to be found in the upper palaeolithic and earliest Mesolithic hunters in the steppe area.

The Imeretian culture is the epipaleolithic entity associated with CHG, and it had a northern extension by 18000 bp which reached as far as the Lower Don by 15000 bp. I’m not expecting the latter to have left a lasting impact, but the Caucasus group certainly did. I think that’s the most likely explanation for some kind of CHG in the Don by 5500 bc. The other alternative is the commonality being due to ANE moving south and contributing to CHG.
A third factor to consider is that HGs shifted their territories every few hundred years in this zone. They could have been Dzudzuana- CHG like and then EHG replaced them before CHG bounced back 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...8212003035

Yeah if you go back that far then you have to contend with some serious oscillations of climate and environment everywhere with populations shifting as their preferred environments shifted.  I am not sure anything from the Don c. 16000-13000BC would have remained after all the changes seen in the 4000 years following that.  I suppose the question would be if a CHG was that far north at that time. did they retreat south before the major water barrier occurred or were they trapped in an enclave on the north side.

[CowboyHG]

Can you elaborate on this? The info on this sample from the Ghalichi paper, at least the version shown by Reinhold, doesn't seem to match.

I saw it on an abstract from Russian authors, saying the individual was dna analysed and had a mix of EHG and CHG. But i haven’t been able to locate it again, as if disappeared 
Also saw it on AW https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1811382208516567518

RC dating of hunter-fishers is worthless if they didnt do isotope work and calibrated it according to any reservoir effects. Could be 1000 years+ out.

That’s true although I’m not sure what kind of fish they’d catch in an inland cave

[Арсен]

if Satanay will have Y from EHG (R1b-V1636?) then it will be a perfect candidate for the south pole in the steppe neolithic, GK, Nalchik, Areni, Kura Araks and so on

[CowboyHG]

A lot of archaeologists from former Soviet areas had a big fixation with middle eastern migrations directly into Eastern Europe , waves upon waves 
Eg https://arheologia.com.ua/index.php/arhe...e/view/302
I think most of these are outlandish, and are probably due unrecognised EHG impact
It was often thought that Crimean HGs would be near eastern but they turned out EHG

[HurrianFam]

if Satanay will have Y from EHG (R1b-V1636?) then it will be a perfect candidate for the south pole in the steppe neolithic, GK, Nalchik, Areni, Kura Araks and so on

What do you mean by "south pole"?

[Арсен]

if Satanay will have Y from EHG (R1b-V1636?) then it will be a perfect candidate for the south pole in the steppe neolithic, GK, Nalchik, Areni, Kura Araks and so on

What do you mean by "south pole"?

Caucasian pole

[HurrianFam]

if Satanay will have Y from EHG (R1b-V1636?) then it will be a perfect candidate for the south pole in the steppe neolithic, GK, Nalchik, Areni, Kura Araks and so on

What do you mean by "south pole"?

Caucasian pole

  ReinholdEarlyPCA.png (Size: 114.16 KB / Downloads: 412)
How? Geographically it's well north of Areni. Look at where it is on the PCA compared to Nalchik and Steppe Eneolithic. Satanay (SJG001) is way at the top with the other Eastern European Hunter Gatherers while the fifth millennium BCE samples are all on a cline towards CHG and Georgia Neolithic and Caucasus Eneolithic (Unakozovskaya)

[CowboyHG]

Can you elaborate on this? The info on this sample from the Ghalichi paper, at least the version shown by Reinhold, doesn't seem to match.

I saw it on an abstract from Russian authors, saying the individual was dna analysed and had a mix of EHG and CHG. But i haven’t been able to locate it again, as if disappeared 
Also saw it on AW https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1811382208516567518

 
The Satanay sample will likely have EHG origin Y-DNA. I read that somewhere in the past IIRC.

Yes I can see on the PCA HF posted. Beware of abstracts 
Darn. Was hoping for some interesting CHG/ J

[Арсен]

What do you mean by "south pole"?

Caucasian pole

How? Geographically it's well north of Areni. Look at where it is on the PCA compared to Nalchik and Steppe Eneolithic. Satanay (SJG001) is way at the top with the other Eastern European Hunter Gatherers while the fifth millennium BCE samples are all on a cline towards CHG and Georgia Neolithic and Caucasus Eneolithic (Unakozovskaya)

does the Satanai sample appear in this work? I didn't know about it, to be honest, I can't make out anything from this graph.
It would be better quality.

[HurrianFam]

Caucasian pole

How? Geographically it's well north of Areni. Look at where it is on the PCA compared to Nalchik and Steppe Eneolithic. Satanay (SJG001) is way at the top with the other Eastern European Hunter Gatherers while the fifth millennium BCE samples are all on a cline towards CHG and Georgia Neolithic and Caucasus Eneolithic (Unakozovskaya)

does the Satanai sample appear in this work? I didn't know about it, to be honest, I can't make out anything from this graph.
It would be better quality.

[attachment=2006]
   
Best I can do for you until the paper comes out.
Edit: Added some more of her labels from another slide

[Арсен]

How? Geographically it's well north of Areni. Look at where it is on the PCA compared to Nalchik and Steppe Eneolithic. Satanay (SJG001) is way at the top with the other Eastern European Hunter Gatherers while the fifth millennium BCE samples are all on a cline towards CHG and Georgia Neolithic and Caucasus Eneolithic (Unakozovskaya)

does the Satanai sample appear in this work? I didn't know about it, to be honest, I can't make out anything from this graph.
It would be better quality.

Best I can do for you until the paper comes out.

this is pure ehg...
now it is clear how the abbreviation SJG is translated - "SatanaJ Grott"
now allhope is on Chokh. if he also turns out to be pure ehg I will finish with genetics

[alanarchae]

if Satanay will have Y from EHG (R1b-V1636?) then it will be a perfect candidate for the south pole in the steppe neolithic, GK, Nalchik, Areni, Kura Araks and so on

What do you mean by "south pole"?

steppe penguins

[Арсен]

I wonder about this "light green color" in Satanai, what kind of mixture does he mean by it? Is it something like ancient northern Eurasians or the same mixture that was in the steppe Maykop, associated with wshg, or tutkaul?

[Jafety]

Might be Tutkaul? I asked one researcher who used to work with this German team and said that this is probably unsupervised admix result so difficult to get what deep blue vs cyan is.
Maybe the cline is SHG or UNHG vs WSHG and thats why clear EHG appears as mixed. But this is just a guess

[Арсен]

most likely it is an admixture related to wshg, since the satanic sample is on the extreme side of the wedge of the ehg cluster, closest to wshg. very interesting