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08-03-2024, 06:21 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 07:09 AM by CowboyHG.)
(08-03-2024, 03:47 AM)Sephesakueu Wrote: When the definition of "core yamnaya" encompass belonging to R or I haplo , or any other vanilla stuff does it come from a rational place?
The J2b2b from Bursuceni belongs to a clade whose MRCA with J2b2a-L283 is almost 14.000 years old https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z42942/, so about as relevant to L283 as that shady west siberian hunter gatherer R1b subclade(PH155) is to lets say R1b-L23. This J2b2b individual was clearly a recent south caucasus imigrant with aknashen autossomal, unlike the Crihana Veche J2b2a - L283 wich had no extra autossomal afinities to the caucasus, suggesting older presence among either yamnaya, or european farmers , tho the odds of the last are lower than 16% by now
I get what you & Polska are saying, however unless we know the the geneaology of the Crihana veche individual, it is difficult to make definite conclusions from their autosomal make-up. Hence im sure anyone would agree we need direct Y-DNA evidence.
I would point out, however, that we cannot make cross-analogies from R1b because these are very different cases. We have documented adna evidence that the various clades of R1b existed on opposite sides of Europe & even Siberia by 10000 bc.
That’s not the case with J2b2 (whatever sub lineage) which existed in a close-knit area between the southern caucasus and NW Iran, were previously absent in Europe and had a narrow time window to enter the steppe (~4500 -3200bc).
In short, a divergent TMRCA does not preclude co-migration and physical cohabitation of 2 or more subclades. So it's not like Im trying to bundle all J2b2 under one hat and appreciate there are nuances in their history.
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(08-03-2024, 04:51 AM)nomad01 Wrote: (08-02-2024, 10:53 PM)CowboyHG Wrote: (08-02-2024, 09:18 PM)nomad01 Wrote: Does Bulgaria_EBA work as a steppe source?
I took them for granted as non-IE speakers, but they actually have a similar level of steppe as CernavodaB and some of them are close Y-dna relatives of the Yassitepe sample.
There are 3 or 4 different Bulgaria EBA clusters, high steppe, low-steppe and non-steppe in origin. This relates to complex admixxture and social networks betweeen mound and tellcommunities, but some groups of steppe origin began building tells
Some of these clusters in turn work as sources for Anatolian others don't.
I was worried about the lack of an archaeological trail, but now that there is Ezero-type pottery in northwest Anatolia, i'm reassured. It looks like a phased trickling in from thrace to Anatolia between 3700 and 2500bc.
I mean these:
BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
Bulgaria_BeliBreyag_EBA:Bul6
Bulgaria_EBA:I19451
Bulgaria_EBA:I19452
Bulgaria_EBA:I19454
Bulgaria_EBA:I2175
Bulgaria_EBA:I2180
Bulgaria_EBA:I2520
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19455
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19456
They are from southeastern Bulgaria 3000-2500 BC and have 10-15% steppe.
this particular subset is not from the steppe, they just have a little bit of steppe ancestry; composed of G2, non-steppe clades of I2, etc. But they don;t really seem native to Bulgaria, either.
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(08-03-2024, 07:32 AM)CowboyHG Wrote: (08-03-2024, 04:51 AM)nomad01 Wrote: (08-02-2024, 10:53 PM)CowboyHG Wrote: There are 3 or 4 different Bulgaria EBA clusters, high steppe, low-steppe and non-steppe in origin. This relates to complex admixxture and social networks betweeen mound and tellcommunities, but some groups of steppe origin began building tells
Some of these clusters in turn work as sources for Anatolian others don't.
I was worried about the lack of an archaeological trail, but now that there is Ezero-type pottery in northwest Anatolia, i'm reassured. It looks like a phased trickling in from thrace to Anatolia between 3700 and 2500bc.
I mean these:
BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
Bulgaria_BeliBreyag_EBA:Bul6
Bulgaria_EBA:I19451
Bulgaria_EBA:I19452
Bulgaria_EBA:I19454
Bulgaria_EBA:I2175
Bulgaria_EBA:I2180
Bulgaria_EBA:I2520
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19455
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19456
They are from southeastern Bulgaria 3000-2500 BC and have 10-15% steppe.
this particular subset is not from the steppe, they just have a little bit of steppe ancestry; composed of G2, non-steppe clades of I2, etc. But they don;t really seem native to Bulgaria, either.
Yes, I also thought these were farmers at first glance. But they have a similar level of steppe as some Mycenaeans and CernavodaB, among others. And I19452 and Bul6 have the same subclade of i2 as the Anatolian from Yassitepe. So do you think these could actually be proto-Anatolians?
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08-03-2024, 09:22 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 09:37 AM by Archetype0ne.)
(08-03-2024, 01:13 AM)CowboyHG Wrote: (08-02-2024, 11:45 PM)Archetype0ne Wrote: (08-02-2024, 10:43 PM)CowboyHG Wrote: L23 did have the biggest territorial disperal c. 3000 BC, but this is bit of a red herring due to a massive founder effect of L23 eastward toward the Volga-Caspian steppe and as Afansievo. That + elements of personal pride, fooled many people into thinking L23 is somehow central to everything.
But in northwest Europe L23 co-migrated with R1a-L664
In the Adriatic Balkans there was J2b2 pushed along with Yamnaya-era movements, east Balkans Yamnaya era was dominated by I2a.
So even the equation between ‘core Yamnaya’ and nuclear IE doesn't quite hold, as there is more nuance than that.
Looking at the J2b2, I wouldn't say they were pushed by Yamnaya-era movements. They were part of these movements. The current oldest J2b2a1 (aka L283) sample from Moldova (2900-2500 BC) was already CoreYamnaya (84%*). We then have in Maros, North Albania, and Croatia (~2000BC) the next oldest samples, again with high steppe, and in many cases accompanied by z2103 (Maros, Daunians, Cinamak). Across time, for L283 samples, the CoreYamnaya component consistently drops, and across space the further west it reaches the lower the steppe. Case in point: the only three J2b2 samples lacking any steppe were found some 1500 years later in Sardinia Nuragic culture, likely autosomal dilution into the islands local EEF rich population, with the Nuragic culture being intrusive from North Italy to match. And this trend holds for hundred or more samples, which leaves only the conclusion, that between the time J2b2a1 was some CHG to the time of the Moldovan sample, this haplogroup was integrated into core Yamnaya, far before it reached the Balkans. My best guess is probably between Don-Dniper and pre-Maikop both in terms of geography and timeline. But only further samples will tell.
(a)I don't agree with views that J2b2 is a ''core Yamnaya" lineage present on the steppe as early as the Ice Age (as some enthusiasts have suggested), because autosomal definitions are not valid when tracing Y-hg lineages. Secondly, we should respect the evidence we have to date.
So when does J2b2 appear ?
I17973 Bursuceni ~ 3200 BC (Z-V context)
I10206 in Crihana Veche - not C14 dated; ? Cernavoda ? Yamnaya
The sparstiy of J2b2a1 is a reflection of the fact that it was not prevalent in the steppe, and enjoyed its large growth within the (west) Balkans itself
Both are in Moldova and late Eneolithic context. This points to a Late Majkop assimilation of J2b2 specifically wihtin an Usatovo context, which is consistent with archaeological and genetic evidence of direct links between the northwest Pontic region and Majkop.
Otherwise, J2b2 is absent in 'core Yamnaya', and by core Yamnaya I mean the actual Yamnaya samples dominated by R1b-Z2013 from the Ponto-Caspian steppe and Hungary after ~ 3200 BC.
This just underlies the fact that Ballkans is far more complex , movements determined by several push & pull dynamics, (a)and 'Yamnaya' loses meaning unless we employ very strict anthropological definitions (such as ''East-West oriented, supine - leg flexed posture, with reed covered floor and ochre staining'')
a)If we look to earlier J2-related groups, then we see J2a-M319 on the Lower Don. This shows an early Eneolithic movement ~ 4300 BC, thus might link with Nalchik or Meshoko related groups moving toward the Lower Don (Kostankinovka Eneolithic group). Again, movements directed northwest/westward. Then we have Mesol-Neolithic chronoogy J1, which seems to have moved toward the northeast. So we have evidence of chronological layering of Caucasian-related movements into the steppe, small independent groups moving to very specific locations on the steppe, then quickly moving beyond it.
a) This is the thing, CoreYamnaya is a rigorous definition per the IndoEuropean paper, different from preYamnaya. And the Moldovan sample per Reich and Lazaridis has been assigned to CoreYamnaya per this strict definition, and it has everything to do with the autosomal profile, and timeline.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...7.589597v1
Quote:Kudachurt, Russia N 43.354032°, E 43.721893° Excavation ‘Institute of Archaeology of the Caucasus’, Nalchik 2004-2006 The flat cemetery of Kudachurt K14 is one of the rare cemeteries with heterogeneous burial rites of the Bronze Age that has been excavated almost to full extent. The location of the site is in the foothills of the northern flank of the Greater Caucasus, not far below where the river Balkar Cherek flows out of a 600 m deep gorge. The environment is mid-altitude alpine forest vegetation3 . The final Middle and Late Bronze Age cemetery (ca. 2200-1650 calBCE) on the right river terrace was part of a long-term rescue excavation due to the construction of a hydrological station during which 219 burials were excavated, of which 130 date to the Bronze Age.
...
• KDC001.A0101.TF1 (BZNK-301/1), kurgan 14, grave 218.1/2, individual 218.1_3. The complex was a catacomb grave with two layers of inhumations. The skeletons were placed with their grave goods in crouched positions. A minimal number of eleven individuals were found, four in the upper (218.1) and seven in the lower level (218.2). Like the majority of burials at Kudachurt the grave contained ceramic vessels, animal remains, a few bronze weapons and jewellery. Dating of the animal sample from layer 1: 1953-1776 calBCE (3548±23BP, MAMS-110560); dating of the animal sample from layer 2: 1971-1777 calBCE (3554±23BP, MAMS-110561)
Ancient human genome-wide data from a 3000-year interval in the Caucasus corresponds with eco-geographic regions
KDC001 is a fully Caucasus autosomally L283 of MBA, found in the village of Nalchik, likely a remnant of the population that earlier would have mixed to Form Core Yamnaya.
Plenty of opportunity from this region to admix with R1b-z2103, which is found a walk away, but the real admixture likely happened much earlier (as obviously the coreYamnaya Moldovan L283 sample is 1200-800 years older).
Quote:
Consider the other J2b2(non L283) Polska mentioned, with a 90% Akanshen admix in Moldova. That one for sure reached Moldova in an earlier wave, preYamnaya. But for the J2b2 I am specifically addressing, namely the L283, the situation is different. Both the autosomal profile, Y diversification, and timeline, fit nothing but coreYamnaya.
How and where they got integrated into coreYamnaya is a different questions altogether, but linking it to preYamanya goes exactly against the evidence we currently have.
That is to say, yes there is a strict definition of coreYamnaya, per academic standards, and yes there was multiple layered movements towards the west. But I see no reason to believe the L283 in Moldova was some local CHG+EEF from the earlier waves by the time it got to the region. If anything the 85% CoreYamanaya profile of the Moldovan L283, and association with z2103 likely means that it reached the region already part of the CLV cline that created CoreYamnaya compared to the PreYamnaya wave which includes the 90% Aknashen J2b2 in Moldova.
Furthermore, lets leave all the hard facts aside, and make a thought experiment.
Lets assume that you are right, and somehow L283 in the Balkans is from and earlier CHG+EEF wave. In what world would it getting pushed from Moldova to the Balkans by expanding IE-Yamnaya waves be conductive to its demographic explosion across the Western Balkans? Is this not the mirror opposite of what happened to non-Core Yamnaya, EEF+WHG haplogroupsm that were virtually driven to extinction. If L283 was showing in the post-Yamnaya BA in the Balkans as a 5-10% line among Z2103, it could be conciveable, but instead we see it dominating in Cetina, and Illyrians (an IE peoples) at rates up to 80%-100% in some regions and burials.
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08-03-2024, 09:37 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 09:38 AM by CowboyHG.)
(08-03-2024, 09:22 AM)Archetype0ne Wrote: (08-03-2024, 01:13 AM)CowboyHG Wrote: (08-02-2024, 11:45 PM)Archetype0ne Wrote: Looking at the J2b2, I wouldn't say they were pushed by Yamnaya-era movements. They were part of these movements. The current oldest J2b2a1 (aka L283) sample from Moldova (2900-2500 BC) was already CoreYamnaya (84%*). We then have in Maros, North Albania, and Croatia (~2000BC) the next oldest samples, again with high steppe, and in many cases accompanied by z2103 (Maros, Daunians, Cinamak). Across time, for L283 samples, the CoreYamnaya component consistently drops, and across space the further west it reaches the lower the steppe. Case in point: the only three J2b2 samples lacking any steppe were found some 1500 years later in Sardinia Nuragic culture, likely autosomal dilution into the islands local EEF rich population, with the Nuragic culture being intrusive from North Italy to match. And this trend holds for hundred or more samples, which leaves only the conclusion, that between the time J2b2a1 was some CHG to the time of the Moldovan sample, this haplogroup was integrated into core Yamnaya, far before it reached the Balkans. My best guess is probably between Don-Dniper and pre-Maikop both in terms of geography and timeline. But only further samples will tell.
(a)I don't agree with views that J2b2 is a ''core Yamnaya" lineage present on the steppe as early as the Ice Age (as some enthusiasts have suggested), because autosomal definitions are not valid when tracing Y-hg lineages. Secondly, we should respect the evidence we have to date.
So when does J2b2 appear ?
I17973 Bursuceni ~ 3200 BC (Z-V context)
I10206 in Crihana Veche - not C14 dated; ? Cernavoda ? Yamnaya
The sparstiy of J2b2a1 is a reflection of the fact that it was not prevalent in the steppe, and enjoyed its large growth within the (west) Balkans itself
Both are in Moldova and late Eneolithic context. This points to a Late Majkop assimilation of J2b2 specifically wihtin an Usatovo context, which is consistent with archaeological and genetic evidence of direct links between the northwest Pontic region and Majkop.
Otherwise, J2b2 is absent in 'core Yamnaya', and by core Yamnaya I mean the actual Yamnaya samples dominated by R1b-Z2013 from the Ponto-Caspian steppe and Hungary after ~ 3200 BC.
This just underlies the fact that Ballkans is far more complex , movements determined by several push & pull dynamics, (a)and 'Yamnaya' loses meaning unless we employ very strict anthropological definitions (such as ''East-West oriented, supine - leg flexed posture, with reed covered floor and ochre staining'')
a)If we look to earlier J2-related groups, then we see J2a-M319 on the Lower Don. This shows an early Eneolithic movement ~ 4300 BC, thus might link with Nalchik or Meshoko related groups moving toward the Lower Don (Kostankinovka Eneolithic group). Again, movements directed northwest/westward. Then we have Mesol-Neolithic chronoogy J1, which seems to have moved toward the northeast. So we have evidence of chronological layering of Caucasian-related movements into the steppe, small independent groups moving to very specific locations on the steppe, then quickly moving beyond it.
a) This is the thing, CoreYamnaya is a rigorous definition per the IndoEuropean paper, different from preYamnaya. And the Moldovan sample per Reich and Lazaridis has been assigned to CoreYamnaya per this strict definition, and it has everything to do with the autosomal profile, and timeline.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...7.589597v1
Quote:Kudachurt, Russia N 43.354032°, E 43.721893° Excavation ‘Institute of Archaeology of the Caucasus’, Nalchik 2004-2006 The flat cemetery of Kudachurt K14 is one of the rare cemeteries with heterogeneous burial rites of the Bronze Age that has been excavated almost to full extent. The location of the site is in the foothills of the northern flank of the Greater Caucasus, not far below where the river Balkar Cherek flows out of a 600 m deep gorge. The environment is mid-altitude alpine forest vegetation3 . The final Middle and Late Bronze Age cemetery (ca. 2200-1650 calBCE) on the right river terrace was part of a long-term rescue excavation due to the construction of a hydrological station during which 219 burials were excavated, of which 130 date to the Bronze Age.
...
• KDC001.A0101.TF1 (BZNK-301/1), kurgan 14, grave 218.1/2, individual 218.1_3. The complex was a catacomb grave with two layers of inhumations. The skeletons were placed with their grave goods in crouched positions. A minimal number of eleven individuals were found, four in the upper (218.1) and seven in the lower level (218.2). Like the majority of burials at Kudachurt the grave contained ceramic vessels, animal remains, a few bronze weapons and jewellery. Dating of the animal sample from layer 1: 1953-1776 calBCE (3548±23BP, MAMS-110560); dating of the animal sample from layer 2: 1971-1777 calBCE (3554±23BP, MAMS-110561)
Ancient human genome-wide data from a 3000-year interval in the Caucasus corresponds with eco-geographic regions
KDC001 is a fully Caucasus autosomally L283 of MBA, found in the village of Nalchik, likely a remnant of the population that earlier would have mixed to Form Core Yamnaya.
Plenty of opportunity from this region to admix with R1b-z2103, which is found a walk away, but the real admixture likely happened much earlier.
Quote:
Consider the other J2b2(non L283) Polska mentioned, with a 90% Akanshen admix in Moldova. That one for sure reached Moldova in an earlier wave, preYamnaya. But for the J2b2 I am specifically addressing, namely the L283, the situation is different. Both the autosomal profile, Y diversification, and timeline, fit nothing but coreYamnaya.
How and where they got integrated into coreYamnaya is a different questions altogether, but linking it to preYamanya goes exactly against the evidence we currently have.
That is to say, yes there is a strict definition of coreYamnaya, per academic standards, and yes there was multiple layered movements towards the west. But I see no reason to believe the L283 in Moldova was some local CHG+EEF from the earlier waves by the time it got to the region. If anything the 85% CoreYamanaya profile of the Moldovan L283, and association with z2103 likely means that it reached the region already part of the CLV cline that created CoreYamnaya compared to the PreYamnaya wave which includes the 90% Aknashen J2b2 in Moldova.
Yep I agree. I was theorizing about how they integrated. I guess this might point to a Lower Don group, or perhaps somewhere in the north Caucasus ?
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08-03-2024, 09:42 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 09:45 AM by CowboyHG.)
(08-03-2024, 08:20 AM)nomad01 Wrote: (08-03-2024, 07:32 AM)CowboyHG Wrote: (08-03-2024, 04:51 AM)nomad01 Wrote: I mean these:
BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
Bulgaria_BeliBreyag_EBA:Bul6
Bulgaria_EBA:I19451
Bulgaria_EBA:I19452
Bulgaria_EBA:I19454
Bulgaria_EBA:I2175
Bulgaria_EBA:I2180
Bulgaria_EBA:I2520
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19455
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19456
They are from southeastern Bulgaria 3000-2500 BC and have 10-15% steppe.
this particular subset is not from the steppe, they just have a little bit of steppe ancestry; composed of G2, non-steppe clades of I2, etc. But they don;t really seem native to Bulgaria, either.
Yes, I also thought these were farmers at first glance. But they have a similar level of steppe as some Mycenaeans and CernavodaB, among others. And I19452 and Bul6 have the same subclade of i2 as the Anatolian from Yassitepe. So do you think these could actually be proto-Anatolians?
I've had a look at a few of the possibilities, but we should first aim to understand the Anatolian chalcolithic. It's very complex. After that, and a few more samples from Chalcolithic Anatolia, we can begin having a clearer idea for IE in Anatolia.
But I think they were very mixed to begin with. The Bronze Age town model which moved through Anatolia and as far as Thrace must have helped a form of IE spread through Anatolia, as well as new horizons after the 2200 BC shake up. I think it probably began soon after 4000 BC, when many settlements were being estalbished for this first time.
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08-03-2024, 10:02 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 10:26 AM by Archetype0ne.)
(08-03-2024, 09:37 AM)CowboyHG Wrote: Yep I agree. I was theorizing about how they integrated. I guess this might point to a Lower Don group, or perhaps somewhere in the north Caucasus ?
I have the same dilemma, my biggest question-mark regarding that is... was L283 incorporated into Yamnaya as part of the Progress component, or later on as part of the Remotnoye (Aknashen rich) component.
Given that we find quite a lot of J2a branches from the CHG ancestral components to the CLV, and that we find L283 in the descendant components of CLV (Phase 3: Core Yamnaya). While we find both fully Progress-like J2a and J2b in the Caucasian HG in Kotias Kilde 10kbp.
A long read from the last time I did some research:
Quote:
Quote:
Coincidentally, IIRC some link Cetina to Vucedol.
At the time of doing research, I felt convinced that one of the biggest drivers of these Yamnaya movements into the Balkans was related to metal work and ore extraction, more than climate or anything else. The trade networks as seen from artifacts produced elsewhere with metal from all over the place goes to show how interlinked North Caucasus, the Steppe and the Balkans were within these networks.
I highly recommend this article: Mala and Velika Gruda tumuluses (a bit outdated, and at places speculative but truly fascinating).
Mentions the link of the Mala Gruda axe type, bowls etc to Vucedol (although the axe preades and is of higher quality to the Vucedol axes), as well as shaft graves to North Caucasus 3100 BC.
Coincidentally 100% of Y lines in Velika and Mala Gruda are L283.
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(08-03-2024, 10:02 AM)Archetype0ne Wrote: Coincidentally, IIRC some link Cetina to Vucedol.
Cetina is considered to be Vucedol expanding towards the coast, with some minor BBC influence.
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08-03-2024, 01:51 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 03:17 PM by Konieczny.)
Did anyone else notice the similar style of dagger found in Fig. 12. Bleckendorf, Prov. Sachsen. CWC grave with copper dagger, awl and bone needle of East European type (Kaiser 2019) and the latest video at the 16 minute mark? Gyvakarai possible connection?
Jaroslav Peška
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ts_content
Stefano Palalidis-Dennis Topoal -Yamnaya Funerary Trends. 16 minute into video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzn8T651ZEs
(04-18-2024, 07:22 PM)Archetype0ne Wrote: Some figures I found interesting:
Ps: Guess everything is interesting.
Admixture table:
Thus, the hammer-headed pin from Gyvakarai fits well into the area of Kurgan culture expansion, and such finds should be considered as (proto) Indo-European.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Skel..._235435021
Note the arrow connecting the movement and strain of Yersinia pestes with Morovia and Gyvakarai. Gyvakarai is also connected to Gen72 strain -- connected to Vucedol?
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The thing is we have another J2B2 in a steppe kurgan (non-L283), and he is North Caucasian autosomally. This doesn't definitely prove anything about L283, but it does give credence to J2B2s in general being more "recently" acquired.
However, by the time of the Yamnaya culture J2B2-L283 was clearly integrated as a minor lineage. There was no archeological or genetic difference between that sample and the R1b/Z2103s buried with it.
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08-03-2024, 06:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 06:50 PM by Archetype0ne.)
(08-03-2024, 05:35 PM)targaryen Wrote: The thing is we have another J2B2 in a steppe kurgan (non-L283), and he is North Caucasian autosomally. This doesn't definitely prove anything about L283, but it does give credence to J2B2s in general being more "recently" acquired.
However, by the time of the Yamnaya culture J2B2-L283 was clearly integrated as a minor lineage. There was no archeological or genetic difference between that sample and the R1b/Z2103s buried with it.
Well, that J2b seems to be a genetic dead end?
Secondly, as you stated, from the autosomal makeup it has a completely different trajectory to the L283 Moldovan. Its not just North Caucasus, its 90% Aknashen, not even Remotnoye like. I don't see how that has anything to do with Yamnaya, more likely an offshoot of some pre/Maikop-people.
Hence. I do not think it gives credence to the recent acquisition of L283 in Yamnaya, when its only 1/2 J2b2 samples in Moldvoa, with a completely different history/movement to the core Yamnaya L283.
For the record if I seem stubborn on this... my first theory years ago when we had only 1-3 ancient L283 was the Anatolian path, then later Usatovo, when the Moldovan L283 was just a rumor. This... to say that I have changed my mind plenty of times as more samples came in, and I am sure I will change it again, but right now I do not see how the dots can be connected any other way.
My view is that L283 developed in the Caucasus ~9kya, and when it expanded 6-5kya it experienced a demographic boom coinciding the the 2nd or 3d steppe wave. While there could be a chance it was pure CHG at the moment of its expansion, and we have seen almost pure CHG profiles in the steppe all the way to Moldova very early, these pre-Yamnaya waves were pretty much erased or dwarfed by the core Yamnaya. And I am talking about both pure CHG profiles, as well as Sredni Stog profiles. So I do not think L283 and its daughter branches, moved from North Caucasus all the way to DonDniper and Moldova preserving CHG heterogeneity, and somehow were that advanced to create their own tribes within the newly advancing coreYamnaya context. Not to the point of dominating Western Balkans harder than even Z2103 did in the Balkans, through founder effects. It would be too much of a stretch, IMO.
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Y-DNA (P): R1b-U152>Z36>L671
Y-DNA (M): G2a-L13>Z38846
mtDNA (M): U4c1a
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08-03-2024, 10:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 10:14 PM by ArmandoR1b.)
(08-03-2024, 09:49 PM)Jafety Wrote: Where is the pestis map from? Where and whdn is the exact origin? The spread is mapped with the carriers who were immune?
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2018.11.005
Emergence and Spread of Basal Lineages of Yersinia pestis during the Neolithic Decline
Published : December 06, 2018
Figure 5 Proposed Dispersion Model of Y. pestis during Neolithic and Bronze Age
https://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/1381...2d/gr5.jpg
(D) The predicted model of early dispersion of Y. pestis during Neolithic and Bronze Age was built by integrating phylogenetic information of Y. pestis strains from this period ( Figure 1E), their divergence times ( Figure 3), the geographic locations, carbon dating and genotypes of the individuals, and the archaeological record. The model suggests that early Y. pestis strains likely emerged and spread from mega-settlements in Eastern Europe (built by the Trypillia Culture) into Europe and the Eurasian steppe, most likely through human interaction networks. This was facilitated by wheeled and animal-powered transports, which are schematized in the map with red lines with arrows pointing in both senses. Our model builds upon a previous model (Andrades Valtuena et al., 2017) that proposed the spread of plague to be associated with large-scale human migrations (blue line).
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08-03-2024, 10:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2024, 10:54 PM by CowboyHG.)
(08-03-2024, 08:20 AM)nomad01 Wrote: (08-03-2024, 07:32 AM)CowboyHG Wrote: (08-03-2024, 04:51 AM)nomad01 Wrote: I mean these:
BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
Bulgaria_BeliBreyag_EBA:Bul6
Bulgaria_EBA:I19451
Bulgaria_EBA:I19452
Bulgaria_EBA:I19454
Bulgaria_EBA:I2175
Bulgaria_EBA:I2180
Bulgaria_EBA:I2520
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19455
Bulgaria_TellKran_EBA:I19456
They are from southeastern Bulgaria 3000-2500 BC and have 10-15% steppe.
this particular subset is not from the steppe, they just have a little bit of steppe ancestry; composed of G2, non-steppe clades of I2, etc. But they don;t really seem native to Bulgaria, either.
Yes, I also thought these were farmers at first glance. But they have a similar level of steppe as some Mycenaeans and CernavodaB, among others. And I19452 and Bul6 have the same subclade of i2 as the Anatolian from Yassitepe. So do you think these could actually be proto-Anatolians?
Just double checked, there are 2 different subclades of I2 in Kazanlak - I2a-M423 in I19454, which has links to western Europe and later becomes part of proto-Slavic gene pool.
The individual I19452 is a child in a Jar burial who belongs to I-P78. Upstream and chronologically earlier individuals are from the lower Dnieper Neolithic. Bul6 from Beli Breyag is a barrow burial. The adoption of Jar burials looks like Anatolia or Aegean influences. This is the one which links to Yassitepe.
Id have to go over everything for admixture modellling at some point.
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(08-03-2024, 01:51 PM)Konieczny Wrote: Is this a phallus?
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