Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites

[Pribislav]

What about these "so called Slavic-Like Czech Celts" ambron is referring? Any of them males with Y-DNA reads?

Those imaginary Slavic-like Celts exist only in ambrons head.

[Riverman]

It seems we could be talking about a patrilineal dynasty as well, since samples from three different sites could belong to the same subclade (the last two have lower coverage):


LWB003; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>Y3098 (xFGC8346,Z40765,Z45548,FT47568,FT153446,BY34320,FGC34822,Y97811)

MBG017; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>Y3098 (xY3101,S2795,FGC8346,Z45548,FT153446,FTD7424,BY34320,BY130701,Z30742,FGC34822,Y97811,FT367097)

HOC002; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803

HOC003;  G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816

MBG016; 616-530 BC; Magdalenenberg, Germany; Hallstatt_IA; G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a-L497>Z1815>Y7538

MBG010; 616-530 BC; Magdalenenberg, Germany; Hallstatt_IA; G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823 

HOC004; 530-500 BC; Eberdingen-Hochdorf, Germany; Hallstatt_IA; G2a2b2a1a1b1a1-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>BY46757>S23438

It would be more correct to simply write about an aristocratic society, which members largely married among each other. The question is whether the marilinear or patrilinear offspring was preferred, or more likely, whether matrilinear offspring could close the gaps, if there were no sons. A bit of sensationalism ("oh, they were matrilinear") being involved in the debate of the results in the paper and media.

We already knew we deal with an endogamous, aristocratic elite, which kind of separated itself from the common people and imported Mediterranean luxury and customs to their courts. The scenes are on their ceramic and vessels, after all, their grave goods prove it as well. But still great to have the genetic evidence supporting these scenarios as well.

[Cejo]

It seems we could be talking about a patrilineal dynasty as well, since samples from three different sites could belong to the same subclade (the last two have lower coverage):


LWB003; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>Y3098 (xFGC8346,Z40765,Z45548,FT47568,FT153446,BY34320,FGC34822,Y97811)

MBG017; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>Y3098 (xY3101,S2795,FGC8346,Z45548,FT153446,FTD7424,BY34320,BY130701,Z30742,FGC34822,Y97811,FT367097)

HOC002; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803

HOC003;  G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816

MBG016; 616-530 BC; Magdalenenberg, Germany; Hallstatt_IA; G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a-L497>Z1815>Y7538

MBG010; 616-530 BC; Magdalenenberg, Germany; Hallstatt_IA; G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823 

HOC004; 530-500 BC; Eberdingen-Hochdorf, Germany; Hallstatt_IA; G2a2b2a1a1b1a1-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>BY46757>S23438

It would be more correct to simply write about an aristocratic society, which members largely married among each other. The question is whether the marilinear or patrilinear offspring was preferred, or more likely, whether matrilinear offspring could close the gaps, if there were no sons. A bit of sensationalism ("oh, they were matrilinear") being involved in the debate of the results in the paper and media.

We already knew we deal with an endogamous, aristocratic elite, which kind of separated itself from the common people and imported Mediterranean luxury and customs to their courts. The scenes are on their ceramic and vessels, after all, their grave goods prove it as well. But still great to have the genetic evidence supporting these scenarios as well.

In general I agree, there may be a bit of sensationalism involved. However, I would note that they make the point that this kind of avuncular inheritance is more common in non-monogamous societies where patrilineal descent is uncertain. In those societies, inbreeding is also more common, due to the same uncertainty of descent. They point to two cases of inbred individuals (MBG004 and APG003) as well as the likely avuncular relationship of HOC001 and APG001 to support their narrative, as well as Roman historical accounts.

...suggesting that in this case institutionalized power was matrilineally inherited from the potentate (HOC001), most probably via his sister’s, and less likely via his daughter’s son (APG001). The first and substantially more likely of these scenarios would be congruent with (later) historical Roman accounts of avuncularism among the early Celts of the fifth or fourth century BCE27,56.

Matrilinear avunculate organization is shown to emerge in populations in which extramarital mating is common and/or paternity confidence is low, so that men are more likely genetically closer related to their sisters’ children than to those of their own wives, ultimately favouring investment in sisters’ children61–66. In this context, the observation of inbreeding in two individuals from Asperg-Grafenbühl and Magdalenenberg is indicative. Both individuals are most likely the product of first-cousin mating, a practice often associated with paternity certainty and avunculocal organization ...

In other words, I do think they are claiming that it was a preferred practice, and not just a case of HOC001 having no sons. However, they also provide some pretty heavy qualifiers/hedges:

Yet, we highlight that this leadership system may be limited to southern Germany and not apply to the rest of the Hallstatt sphere. In addition, there might be differences between the elite and the larger common population. Recent genetic evidence from the Hallstatt Dolge njive barrow cemetery in Slovenia is neither consistent with a strictly matrilineal nor patrilineal kinship structure for the buried population68 and might indicate a more complex heritability system along both the male and female lines that potentially included adoption or fosterage as well68.

The latter (bolded by me) seems most likely in my mind, but that would make for a pretty lousy headline.

[okshtunas]

What about these "so called Slavic-Like Czech Celts" ambron is referring? Any of them males with Y-DNA reads?

Those imaginary Slavic-like Celts exist only in ambrons head.

Be that as it may, do we have the Y-DNA calls on these so called samples he's referring to?

[J Man]

What about these "so called Slavic-Like Czech Celts" ambron is referring? Any of them males with Y-DNA reads?

Those imaginary Slavic-like Celts exist only in ambrons head.

I don't want to derail this thread but would you be able to check the samples from these two upcoming papers for Y-DNA please?

Scandinavian Late Neolithic samples (I mentioned in the Titles/Abstracts section a few days ago relating to plauge) are up: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB76142


And another one.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB70242 - "Paleogenomic data of Prehistoric Alps individuals"

"New insights into the genetic history of prehistoric populations in Eastern Italian Alps from Mesolithic to Middle Bronze Age and highlights of the importance of this region as a crossroads of human movements in prehistory." 98 files

[Pribislav]

What about these "so called Slavic-Like Czech Celts" ambron is referring? Any of them males with Y-DNA reads?

Those imaginary Slavic-like Celts exist only in ambrons head.

I don't want to derail this thread but would you be able to check the samples from these two upcoming papers for Y-DNA please?

Scandinavian Late Neolithic samples (I mentioned in the Titles/Abstracts section a few days ago relating to plauge) are up: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB76142


And another one.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB70242 - "Paleogenomic data of Prehistoric Alps individuals"

"New insights into the genetic history of prehistoric populations in Eastern Italian Alps from Mesolithic to Middle Bronze Age and highlights of the importance of this region as a crossroads of human movements in prehistory." 98 files

I'll be checking them as soon as we find out which ones are males.

[Hodo Scariti]

Many thanks to Pribislav, who is always in first line when it comes to y-dna calls.

It would be interesting to see if APG001 and HOC001 are related also on Y-DNA and not only on Mt-DNA...

[Pribislav]

What about these "so called Slavic-Like Czech Celts" ambron is referring? Any of them males with Y-DNA reads?

Those imaginary Slavic-like Celts exist only in ambrons head.

Be that as it may, do we have the Y-DNA calls on these so called samples he's referring to?

I'm not sure which samples he considers Slavic, but if you can get me their IDs I can tell you their haplogroups.

[okshtunas]

Those imaginary Slavic-like Celts exist only in ambrons head.

Be that as it may, do we have the Y-DNA calls on these so called samples he's referring to?

I'm not sure which samples he considers Slavic, but if you can get me their IDs I can tell you their haplogroups.

Will do!

[okshtunas]

Those imaginary Slavic-like Celts exist only in ambrons head.

Be that as it may, do we have the Y-DNA calls on these so called samples he's referring to?

I'm not sure which samples he considers Slavic, but if you can get me their IDs I can tell you their haplogroups.

He mentioned I20523, I20515 in table S 3.7

I asked him to provide the others as he makes its seem like there are more. I'll provide the others once I have them.

[Riverman]

Adding to the question of Celtic aristocratic patterns:
Both inbreeding and inheritance on the female side in absence of male heirs and if one lineage or house takes out another happened in feudal Europe.
Like a much larger sample would be needed to truly verify a general pattern of matrilinear/avuncular inheritance patterns being truly common or even the dominant mode.

[Pribislav]

Be that as it may, do we have the Y-DNA calls on these so called samples he's referring to?

I'm not sure which samples he considers Slavic, but if you can get me their IDs I can tell you their haplogroups.

He mentioned I20523, I20515 in table S 3.7

I asked him to provide the others as he makes its seem like there are more. I'll provide the others once I have them.

Both I20523 and I20515 are females, the former has extremely low coverage, and the later is from Early Medieval period.

[okshtunas]

I'm not sure which samples he considers Slavic, but if you can get me their IDs I can tell you their haplogroups.

He mentioned I20523, I20515 in table S 3.7

I asked him to provide the others as he makes its seem like there are more. I'll provide the others once I have them.

Both I20523 and I20515 are females, the former has extremely low coverage, and the later is from Early Medieval period.

Nice thanks!

Idk what he was talking about then lmao

[Megalophias]

Many of the Czech La Tene individuals have some Balto-Slavic drift, but even the highest are not really at Slav levels, more like East German. One of them (I13780) had a subclade of R1a-L1029 < M458 (and he was older than expected based on the TMRCA IIRC). Others were E-V13, G2a-L497, and I2-L38.

Maybe Ambron was thinking of the Hungarian La Tene samples (Pannonian Celts?), several of them had really high Balto-Slavic drift. I25524 was closest to Lithuanians and also had R1a-M458, but the rest of these outliers as far as I can tell were female.

[okshtunas]

I'm not sure which samples he considers Slavic, but if you can get me their IDs I can tell you their haplogroups.

He mentioned I20523, I20515 in table S 3.7

I asked him to provide the others as he makes its seem like there are more. I'll provide the others once I have them.

Both I20523 and I20515 are females, the former has extremely low coverage, and the later is from Early Medieval period.

Hi Pribislav,

Here are the other ones ambron claims.

I25509 
I18183 
I18182