Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[Pribislav]

I understand they were the main branch. but maybe not for the Sclaveni. Certainly for the East and South Slavs, but not the West Slavs, with whom the Sclaveni has been traditionally associated. That's my point with my previous post.

Can you share some reliable sources for the bolded part? As far as I know Sclaveni are mostly associated with the South Slavs, not with the West Slavs.

[tylerkiz]

I understand they were the main branch. but maybe not for the Sclaveni. Certainly for the East and South Slavs, but not the West Slavs, with whom the Sclaveni has been traditionally associated. That's my point with my previous post.

Can you share some reliable sources for the bolded part? As far as I know Sclaveni are mostly associated with the South Slavs, not with the West Slavs.

Sclaveni is considered a "catch-all" term for many different Slavic tribes. But in any case, they are associated with South Slavs due to a migration into the Balkans in the 6th/7th century. 

For example, White Croats that seemed to reside somewhere between East and West Slavs in the Carpathians (likely around Krakow or Lesser Poland generally). Some think they were part of the Antes, some think part of the Sclaveni and some say a mix of both. They also migrate into the Balkans at this same time, supposedly alongside Pannonian Avars who to plunder Roman provinces but eventually they turn on the Avars. They go on to become progenitors of Croatia, but the DNA similarity between South Poland and Croatia seems to remain today.

[ambron]

Leonardo

For the Western Slavs, the most characteristic are indeed the paternal lines from the M458 clan. But many CTS1211 lines are equally characteristic, for example my S18681 line. The most characteristic line of the Eastern Slavs is Z92.

[Galadhorn]

Leonardo

For the Western Slavs, the most characteristic are indeed the paternal lines from the M458 clan. But many CTS1211 lines are equally characteristic, for example my S18681 line. The most characteristic line of the Eastern Slavs is Z92.

Ambron, am I wrong in remembering that your male ancestors were Prussians (Baltic people) and not Slavs? Are you not a descendant of a Prussian Gaudo?

Source: https://urzecze.pl/gaudo/

[leonardo]

I understand they were the main branch. but maybe not for the Sclaveni. Certainly for the East and South Slavs, but not the West Slavs, with whom the Sclaveni has been traditionally associated. That's my point with my previous post.

Can you share some reliable sources for the bolded part? As far as I know Sclaveni are mostly associated with the South Slavs, not with the West Slavs.

I can't. You may be right.

[ambron]

Galadhorn

Yes, of course!

Since the S18681 mutation occurred somewhere around the middle Vistula in the Bronze Age, it was most likely originally one of the paternal lines of the Wenedes. Although most of the Wenedes were Slavicized by the Lechites, some were Baltized by the West Baltic tribes. So some of the S18681 clans became part of the West Slavic tribes, and some of them became part West Baltic tribes.

[Orentil]

Attached a map going back to Parczewski 2005 but overlayed with information from Jordanes and Procopius (i.e. before 568 AD). I think Nomad 01 was referring to a similar map. While I agree that Sclaveni and Antae could have been (at least temporary) present in Greater Walachia east of the Olt river I would not assist their presence west of the Olt river. (The Olt river is crossing the word Sclaveni between "Sc-" and "-laveni"

[Vinitharya]

The Veneti in that map are far too far to the east.  They are the Vistula Veneti after all, not the Dnieper Veneti.  That would have been the land of the Dnieper Balts, an East Baltic tribe whose descendants later became the Eastern Galindians.

[okshtunas]

may be a bit nitpicking, but this is how I read Jordanes:

it corresponds to the Mogilla, Korchak, Ipotesti-Candesti cultures.

Central Hungary was inhabited Langobards and Gepids, and after that by proper Avars, after that by Hungarian conquerors.

I believe we can assume with some plausibility, maybe even certainty, that the Sclaveni were, patrilineally, M458, Y3120 and maybe even a few minors branches, including even some CTS1211.

[/quote]




I very much doubt Sclaveni has only some CTS1211. The proportion of CTS1211 in South Slavs for instance is higher than M458. Sure, perhaps there were turnovers and shifts in dominance of the lineage over time. However, without aDNA, it appears CTS1211 was still the dominant Slavic R1a branch in South and East Slavs, with M458 coming in Second in East, and 3rd in South Slavs. Whereas distribution of M458 is either greather than or equal to Z280 among Western Slavs.

M458 in general still remains a not so very dominant Slavic clade outside of West Slavs.

[VladMC]

The Veneti in that map are far too far to the east.  They are the Vistula Veneti after all, not the Dnieper Veneti.  That would have been the land of the Dnieper Balts, an East Baltic tribe whose descendants later became the Eastern Galindians.

Apparently these are maps after the 8th century, when this territory was occupied by the Vyatichi, previously they were called the Ventichi. According to the "Tale of Bygone Years" (chronicle of Kievan Rus' from about 850 to 1110) Vyatichi and Radimichi were "from the Lyakh family". From the Polish Lędzianie. From the tale of bygone years, "Those Slavs came and sat on the Vistula, nicknamed Lyakhs, and from those Lyakhs were called Lyashsky Polyane, other Lyutichs, other Mazovians and other Pomorians". The word vyatichi was written with the letter Ѧ, which is similar to the Polish letter ę (vѦtichi). It was already the Romenskaya culture that replaced the Baltic Moschinsksya culture in the area. The Baltic Goliad tribe (Golinds) lived a little to the northwest on the Nara and Protva rivers.

[ph2ter]

may be a bit nitpicking, but this is how I read Jordanes:



it corresponds to the Mogilla, Korchak, Ipotesti-Candesti cultures.



Central Hungary was inhabited Langobards and Gepids, and after that by proper Avars, after that by Hungarian conquerors.

I believe we can assume with some plausibility, maybe even certainty, that the Sclaveni were, patrilineally, M458, Y3120 and maybe even a few minors branches, including even some CTS1211.

Leonardo,
I didn't write this. These maps are not mine. You made a mess of these replies

[ph2ter]

Interesting map that looks fairly accurate and it has a corridor between Tisza river and Danube taken by Slavs in the first half of the VI century:

[leonardo]

may be a bit nitpicking, but this is how I read Jordanes:



it corresponds to the Mogilla, Korchak, Ipotesti-Candesti cultures.



Central Hungary was inhabited Langobards and Gepids, and after that by proper Avars, after that by Hungarian conquerors.

I believe we can assume with some plausibility, maybe even certainty, that the Sclaveni were, patrilineally, M458, Y3120 and maybe even a few minors branches, including even some CTS1211.

Leonardo,
I didn't write this. These maps are not mine. You made a mess of these replies

My apologies. I was referring to the top map. I thought you posted it. I see now it was another poster.

[Orentil]

Interesting map that looks fairly accurate and it has a corridor between Tisza river and Danube taken by Slavs in the first half of the VI century:

In general a nice map, but e.g. the expansion into Bohemia and Thuringia is a bit to early for me. Droberjar explored the Germanic settlements in Bohemia in detail distinguishing a "Thuringian Phase" 480-530 (phase E1) from a "Langobardian Phase" 530-560/70 (phase E2). I see this expansion not before the battle between the Avars and the Franks/Thuringians at the river Elbe in 562 AD.

[ph2ter]

Interesting map that looks fairly accurate and it has a corridor between Tisza river and Danube taken by Slavs in the first half of the VI century:

In general a nice map, but e.g. the expansion into Bohemia and Thuringia is a bit to early for me. Droberjar explored the Germanic settlements in Bohemia in detail distinguishing a "Thuringian Phase" 480-530 (phase E1) from a "Langobardian Phase" 530-560/70 (phase E2). I see this expansion not before the battle between the Avars and the Franks/Thuringians at the river Elbe in 562 AD.

I agree.
In other words in 550 CE the situation was like this: