Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...

[Pribislav]

Not agreeing:

-claiming there is a genetic continuity of Polish population from the BA to the present
-claiming that La Tene and Wielbark were Slavic cultures
-claiming that Abashevo was proto-Slavic, Z282-rich culture
-using the term "Indo-Slavs"

[bolek]

-claiming there is a genetic continuity of Polish population from the BA to the present
-claiming that La Tene and Wielbark were Slavic cultures
-claiming that Abashevo was proto-Slavic, Z282-rich culture
-using the term "Indo-Slavs"

If you don't see the difference between Polish and Slavic, between Unetice and La Tene, between proto-Slavic R1a-Z282 rich Mierzanovice culture and R1a-Z93 rich Indo-Slavic Abashevo culture, if you haven't heard about Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian linguistic links, then I am sorry for you.

[leonardo]

One thing that may be helpful is that prior to the migration the Slavs underwent a substantial population growth.  One of today's "Did you know" facts on Wikipedia is that there are more than 9,000 swamps in Belarus.  Indeed in the article mention is made that "swampy lands were the cheapest and their agricultural output was very poor".  Could anyone believe a population could grow exponentially on very poor agricultural land?  Florida was a national backwater until the swamps were drained; it was deleterious to the environment, but it proves my point.  Are we to believe that a population that flowed out and dominated East-Central Europe was raised and sustained on frogs, swamp fish, and meager wetland vegetation?  It is far more likely the bulk of the proto-Slavic population was among that which was described as the 'Aroteres', the Scythian ploughmen, whose examples MJ-33 and UKR036 were both M458, and their Thracian-like autosome could have been the influence separating the early Slavs from their Baltic kin.

The Proto-Slavs were insignificant population until the contact with the Goths. The Wielbark and the Chernyakhov culture probably made a positive impuls to them and they probably started to spread slowly and gradualy started to dominate numerically in the Chernyakhov culture, at least on their northern side.
After the Huns crushed the Goths, the Goths almost completely outmigrated and the Huns were subsequently defeated.
After these events the playground for the Slavs was wide and open.

I wonder how the Venedi of the late 4th century are involved. Jordanes says the Goths conquered the Heruli, the Aestii and the Venedi. The Aessti may have been Balts. The Venedi? Maybe a combination of primarily M458 and Y3120?

[Lucas Westerwelle]

One thing that may be helpful is that prior to the migration the Slavs underwent a substantial population growth.  One of today's "Did you know" facts on Wikipedia is that there are more than 9,000 swamps in Belarus.  Indeed in the article mention is made that "swampy lands were the cheapest and their agricultural output was very poor".  Could anyone believe a population could grow exponentially on very poor agricultural land?  Florida was a national backwater until the swamps were drained; it was deleterious to the environment, but it proves my point.  Are we to believe that a population that flowed out and dominated East-Central Europe was raised and sustained on frogs, swamp fish, and meager wetland vegetation?  It is far more likely the bulk of the proto-Slavic population was among that which was described as the 'Aroteres', the Scythian ploughmen, whose examples MJ-33 and UKR036 were both M458, and their Thracian-like autosome could have been the influence separating the early Slavs from their Baltic kin.

The Proto-Slavs were insignificant population until the contact with the Goths. The Wielbark and the Chernyakhov culture probably made a positive impuls to them and they probably started to spread slowly and gradualy started to dominate numerically in the Chernyakhov culture, at least on their northern side.
After the Huns crushed the Goths, the Goths almost completely outmigrated and the Huns were subsequently defeated.
After these events the playground for the Slavs was wide and open.

I wonder how the Venedi of the late 4th century are involved. Jordanes says the Goths conquered the Heruli, the Aestii and the Venedi. The Aessti may have been Balts. The Venedi? Maybe a combination of primarily M458 and Y3120?

The Veneti of Jordanes, Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy were very likely either Balto-Slavs or just Slavs. The ones from Eastern Europe. The ones from the later Bretagne/Wales or Turkey are another matter.

[La Tene]

One thing that may be helpful is that prior to the migration the Slavs underwent a substantial population growth.  One of today's "Did you know" facts on Wikipedia is that there are more than 9,000 swamps in Belarus.  Indeed in the article mention is made that "swampy lands were the cheapest and their agricultural output was very poor".  Could anyone believe a population could grow exponentially on very poor agricultural land?  Florida was a national backwater until the swamps were drained; it was deleterious to the environment, but it proves my point.  Are we to believe that a population that flowed out and dominated East-Central Europe was raised and sustained on frogs, swamp fish, and meager wetland vegetation?  It is far more likely the bulk of the proto-Slavic population was among that which was described as the 'Aroteres', the Scythian ploughmen, whose examples MJ-33 and UKR036 were both M458, and their Thracian-like autosome could have been the influence separating the early Slavs from their Baltic kin.

The Proto-Slavs were insignificant population until the contact with the Goths. The Wielbark and the Chernyakhov culture probably made a positive impuls to them and they probably started to spread slowly and gradualy started to dominate numerically in the Chernyakhov culture, at least on their northern side.
After the Huns crushed the Goths, the Goths almost completely outmigrated and the Huns were subsequently defeated.
After these events the playground for the Slavs was wide and open.

I wonder how the Venedi of the late 4th century are involved. Jordanes says the Goths conquered the Heruli, the Aestii and the Venedi. The Aessti may have been Balts. The Venedi? Maybe a combination of primarily M458 and Y3120?

Does it not appear like 3 of those 4 lines *start* or *continue* to gradually pick up during the timeframe of the Milograd culture (roughly 650-200)?

The name Venedi maybe could possibly be associated with originally Celtic speaking colonists or traders in Poland, or say like samples that have a western pull like some of the Pruszcz Gdanski crowd. 

Just an idea

[ambron]

Pribislav:

"Not agreeing:

-claiming there is a genetic continuity of Polish population from the BA to the present"

It all depends on how you define "genetic continuity".

Nearly 60% of modern Poles are descendants of their common ancestor Z282, who lived on modern Poland area around 2700 BCE.

[okshtunas]

The Proto-Slavs were insignificant population until the contact with the Goths. The Wielbark and the Chernyakhov culture probably made a positive impuls to them and they probably started to spread slowly and gradualy started to dominate numerically in the Chernyakhov culture, at least on their northern side.
After the Huns crushed the Goths, the Goths almost completely outmigrated and the Huns were subsequently defeated.
After these events the playground for the Slavs was wide and open.

I wonder how the Venedi of the late 4th century are involved. Jordanes says the Goths conquered the Heruli, the Aestii and the Venedi. The Aessti may have been Balts. The Venedi? Maybe a combination of primarily M458 and Y3120?

Does it not appear like 3 of those 4 lines *start* or *continue* to gradually pick up during the timeframe of the Milograd culture (roughly 650-200)?

The name Venedi maybe could possibly be associated with originally Celtic speaking colonists or traders in Poland, or say like samples that have a western pull like some of the Pruszcz Gdanski crowd. 

Just an idea

These lineages mostly have tmrcaa that lost date milograd and neither were found on that culture. Their tmrca dates to Zarubintsy/Chernyakhov eras

[okshtunas]

Pribislav:

"Not agreeing:

-claiming there is a genetic continuity of Polish population from the BA to the present"

It all depends on how you define "genetic continuity".

Nearly 60% of modern Poles are descendants of their common ancestor Z282, who lived on modern Poland area around 2700 BCE.

Even if that were remotely true, it does not mean that all the descendants of Z282 were Slavs, let alone Poles with unbroken descent since the Bronze Age. 

They are predominantly derived from younger migrations. You could call it a back migration, but the people, the language and largely the ancestry was very different. Calling it Polish or Slavic would be very obviously a gross lie. 

You can only speak of Slavs from LA onward, and of Poles on the EMA and later. By then, lineages that make up Poles had already had various clades of lineages that bottlnecked and expanded in various directions with various peoples even before Poles were fully formed.

[leonardo]

The Proto-Slavs were insignificant population until the contact with the Goths. The Wielbark and the Chernyakhov culture probably made a positive impuls to them and they probably started to spread slowly and gradualy started to dominate numerically in the Chernyakhov culture, at least on their northern side.
After the Huns crushed the Goths, the Goths almost completely outmigrated and the Huns were subsequently defeated.
After these events the playground for the Slavs was wide and open.

I wonder how the Venedi of the late 4th century are involved. Jordanes says the Goths conquered the Heruli, the Aestii and the Venedi. The Aessti may have been Balts. The Venedi? Maybe a combination of primarily M458 and Y3120?

Does it not appear like 3 of those 4 lines *start* or *continue* to gradually pick up during the timeframe of the Milograd culture (roughly 650-200)?

The name Venedi maybe could possibly be associated with originally Celtic speaking colonists or traders in Poland, or say like samples that have a western pull like some of the Pruszcz Gdanski crowd. 

Just an idea

The Proto-Slavs were insignificant population until the contact with the Goths. The Wielbark and the Chernyakhov culture probably made a positive impuls to them and they probably started to spread slowly and gradualy started to dominate numerically in the Chernyakhov culture, at least on their northern side.
After the Huns crushed the Goths, the Goths almost completely outmigrated and the Huns were subsequently defeated.
After these events the playground for the Slavs was wide and open.

I wonder how the Venedi of the late 4th century are involved. Jordanes says the Goths conquered the Heruli, the Aestii and the Venedi. The Aessti may have been Balts. The Venedi? Maybe a combination of primarily M458 and Y3120?

Does it not appear like 3 of those 4 lines *start* or *continue* to gradually pick up during the timeframe of the Milograd culture (roughly 650-200)?

The name Venedi maybe could possibly be associated with originally Celtic speaking colonists or traders in Poland, or say like samples that have a western pull like some of the Pruszcz Gdanski crowd. 

Just an idea

The Proto-Slavs were insignificant population until the contact with the Goths. The Wielbark and the Chernyakhov culture probably made a positive impuls to them and they probably started to spread slowly and gradualy started to dominate numerically in the Chernyakhov culture, at least on their northern side.
After the Huns crushed the Goths, the Goths almost completely outmigrated and the Huns were subsequently defeated.
After these events the playground for the Slavs was wide and open.

I wonder how the Venedi of the late 4th century are involved. Jordanes says the Goths conquered the Heruli, the Aestii and the Venedi. The Aessti may have been Balts. The Venedi? Maybe a combination of primarily M458 and Y3120?

Does it not appear like 3 of those 4 lines *start* or *continue* to gradually pick up during the timeframe of the Milograd culture (roughly 650-200)?

The name Venedi maybe could possibly be associated with originally Celtic speaking colonists or traders in Poland, or say like samples that have a western pull like some of the Pruszcz Gdanski crowd. 

Just an idea

I can see that, something associated with the amber trade. But you know how ancients recycled names. By the time the Goths defeated the "Venedi" of the 4th century, they may well have been some of the tribes that later formed the Slavic ethnogenesis. After all Jordanes says they were "numerous." A " numerous" tribe or group in the late 4th century? Possibly.

[ambron]

okshtunas

I'm not saying anything like that. If I call Z282 a Slavic line, it is only because currently the vast majority of its descendants are Slavs.

Show me a more significant Polish Z282 line, which is a back migration to Poland from the Kiev culture.

[La Tene]

These lineages mostly have tmrcaa that lost date milograd and neither were found on that culture. Their tmrca dates to Zarubintsy/Chernyakhov eras

Then post a better graph

[Radko]

Not agreeing:

-claiming there is a genetic continuity of Polish population from the BA to the present
-claiming that La Tene and Wielbark were Slavic cultures
-claiming that Abashevo was proto-Slavic, Z282-rich culture
-using the term "Indo-Slavs"

It will be interesting to see if Oksywie culture (predecessor of the Wielbark culture) samples are indeed Wielbark-like as scientists claim.

Also, if Przeworsk culture samples are predominantly Celtic and Germanic-like.

And if Lusatian culture population in Poland is really non-Baltic-like/non-Balto-Slavic-like in terms of auDNA as per Golubinski's PCA.

[Radko]

And if (big if) there are any outliers, samples of such individuals are thoroughly checked for contamination, radiocarbon dated, the archaeological description of burials is done with great care and isotopic analysis is performed. So we're not left with too many guesses and misinterpretations.

[bolek]

Not agreeing:

-claiming there is a genetic continuity of Polish population from the BA to the present
-claiming that La Tene and Wielbark were Slavic cultures
-claiming that Abashevo was proto-Slavic, Z282-rich culture
-using the term "Indo-Slavs"

It will be interesting to see if Oksywie culture (predecessor of the Wielbark culture) samples are indeed Wielbark-like as scientists claim.

Also, if Przeworsk culture samples are predominantly Celtic and Germanic-like.

And if Lusatian culture population in Poland is really non-Baltic-like/non-Balto-Slavic-like in terms of auDNA as per Golubinski's PCA.

It looks like Pribislav had a bad day writing nonsense.
It will be really interesting to see if the Lusatian culture population in Poland was R1a-Z282 rich and descended from proto-Slavic R1a-Z282 rich Mierzanowice culture. Y-DNA in Indo-European cultures is responsible for language and ethnicity. This would settle the question of the Slavic ethnicity of Lusatian culture.

[Orentil]

Not agreeing:

-claiming there is a genetic continuity of Polish population from the BA to the present
-claiming that La Tene and Wielbark were Slavic cultures
-claiming that Abashevo was proto-Slavic, Z282-rich culture
-using the term "Indo-Slavs"

It will be interesting to see if Oksywie culture (predecessor of the Wielbark culture) samples are indeed Wielbark-like as scientists claim.

Also, if Przeworsk culture samples are predominantly Celtic and Germanic-like.

And if Lusatian culture population in Poland is really non-Baltic-like/non-Balto-Slavic-like in terms of auDNA as per Golubinski's PCA.

It looks like Pribislav had a bad day writing nonsense.
It will be really interesting to see if the Lusatian culture population in Poland was R1a-Z282 rich and descended from proto-Slavic R1a-Z282 rich Mierzanowice culture. Y-DNA in Indo-European cultures is responsible for language and ethnicity. This would settle the question of the Slavic ethnicity of Lusatian culture.

I'm really looking forward to the samples from the Oksywie culture. This is from the last summary by Anna Strobin from 2023 (GROBY SZKIELETOWE W KULTURZE OKSYWSKIEJ, Archeologia Polski, LXVIII: 2023): "Geneza inhumacji w kulturze oksywskiej jest nadal tematem otwartym. Do lepszego jej wyjaśnienia mogą przyczynić się nie tylko kolejne odkrycia takich grobów,
ale przede wszystkim analizy DNA oraz izotopów strontu, które pomogą wyjaśnić wzajemne pokrewieństwo i migracje osób spoczywających w grobach szkieletowych. Opublikowane niedawno rezultaty badań izotopów strontu wykonane na próbkach (zębach) z kilkunastu grobów inhumacyjnych z cmentarzyska w Malborku-Wielbarku, głównie z okresu rzymskiego, wskazały na lokalne pochodzenie zmarłych (Łuczkiewicz i in. 2022). Oczywiście, jest to dopiero początkowy etap takich badań, ale już teraz ich wyniki są cenne. "
google translation:
"The origins of inhumation in the Oksywie culture are still an open topic. Not only subsequent discoveries of such graves may contribute to a better explanation, but above all analyzes of DNA and strontium isotopes, which will help explain the mutual relationships and migrations of people buried in skeletal graves. Recently published results of strontium isotope tests performed on samples (teeth) from several inhumation graves from the cemetery in Malbork-Wielbark, mainly from the Roman period, indicated the local origin of the deceased (Łuczkiewicz et al. 2022). Of course, this is only the initial stage of such research, but the results are already valuable."

So we know at least already  that we can expect DNA results from "locals", not from people from abroad

https://www.academia.edu/117624715/GROBY...RAVES?sm=b