Hello guest, if you read this it means you are not registered. Click here to register in a few simple steps, you will enjoy all features of our Forum.

Stolarek et al: Genetic history of East-Central Europe...
It is not important how high the percentage is when determining where a haplogroup originated. L21 is above 60% in Ireland and no one seriously claims that is where L21 originates. Far more important are diversity of subclades and asterisked paragroup members in an area.
okshtunas and leonardo like this post
Reply
(06-12-2024, 09:26 PM)Vinitharya Wrote: It is not important how high the percentage is when determining where a haplogroup originated. L21 is above 60% in Ireland and no one seriously claims that is where L21 originates. Far more important are diversity of subclades and asterisked paragroup members in an area.

I2a-Din has the highest diversity in Belarus Polesie, at least according to available data.
Galadhorn and JMcB like this post
Reply
(06-12-2024, 09:29 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 09:26 PM)Vinitharya Wrote: It is not important how high the percentage is when determining where a haplogroup originated. L21 is above 60% in Ireland and no one seriously claims that is where L21 originates. Far more important are diversity of subclades and asterisked paragroup members in an area.

I2a-Din has the highest diversity in Belarus Polesie, at least according to available data.

And how about M458?
Reply
(06-12-2024, 10:05 PM)leonardo Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 09:29 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 09:26 PM)Vinitharya Wrote: It is not important how high the percentage is when determining where a haplogroup originated. L21 is above 60% in Ireland and no one seriously claims that is where L21 originates. Far more important are diversity of subclades and asterisked paragroup members in an area.

I2a-Din has the highest diversity in Belarus Polesie, at least according to available data.

And how about M458?

I don't know. I wasn't much interested in M458.
Old studies calculated diversity according to Y-STR values. Phylogeographer maps are not realistic because Belarus is undersampled.
Reply
(06-12-2024, 10:18 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:05 PM)leonardo Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 09:29 PM)ph2ter Wrote: I2a-Din has the highest diversity in Belarus Polesie, at least according to available data.

And how about M458?

I don't know. I wasn't much interested in M458.
Old studies calculated diversity according to Y-STR values. Phylogeographer maps are not realistic because Belarus is undersampled.

No opinion or interest? Odd. I don't think you will find the highest diversity of M458 in Belarus. That's my opinion.
Reply
(06-12-2024, 10:24 PM)leonardo Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:18 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:05 PM)leonardo Wrote: And how about M458?

I don't know. I wasn't much interested in M458.
Old studies calculated diversity according to Y-STR values. Phylogeographer maps are not realistic because Belarus is undersampled.

No opinion or interest? Odd. I don't think you will find the highest diversity of M458 in Belarus. That's my opinion.

When I started to take an interest in Y-DNA, I was primarily interested only in my group. What's weird about that?
jamtastic and Āryāvarta like this post
Reply
(06-12-2024, 10:39 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:24 PM)leonardo Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:18 PM)ph2ter Wrote: I don't know. I wasn't much interested in M458.
Old studies calculated diversity according to Y-STR values. Phylogeographer maps are not realistic because Belarus is undersampled.

No opinion or interest? Odd. I don't think you will find the highest diversity of M458 in Belarus. That's my opinion.

When I started to take an interest in Y-DNA, I was primarily interested only in my group. What's weird about that?

I'm just thinking about your interest in Slavs, the Slavic ethnogenesis, etc. It seems to be your primary interest. M458 and its clades are an essential part. We have M458 matches. I just thought you would offer an opinion or try to determine M458's highest diversity spots. I have seen articles that speak of M458's diversity, so I know others have offered their opinion. I was interested in yours.
Reply
(06-12-2024, 09:15 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 08:19 PM)okshtunas Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 06:28 PM)Radko Wrote: Could this heat map be somehow related to the upcoming Gretzinger et al. publication?

[Image: Screenshot-20240612-205448-Drive.jpg]

So do they have actual aDNA from the migration era Slavs of Belarus and Ukraine?

A few past papers have made such claims with zero aDNA to back it up. Mainly taking their stance based on autosomal. Personally I am of the opinion that the main vehicle of Slavic migration came from that area. However, I am a little more careful to group the entirety of Y-DNA sub-clades under a given line to this expansion.

Rather, I wouldn't be surprised if more peripheral lineages outside this zone were absorbed upon the migration and then pushed with the expansion, as opposed to isolating all Y-DNA together in that area.

If we look at the diversity of M458 for instance (say L1029), only YP417 perfectly fits within Northern Ukraine/Southern Belarus. Same cannot be said for other sub-clades which may have been absorbed when "Slavs-Proper" or rather Slavs of the Kiev cultural type left the area. The more and more are tested, we can see in relation to M458, YP417 and L260 (in case of Ukraine - can't recall specific clades) have a higher representation among them. Whereas, Only in the case of Ukrainians do we see a little more of a diverse spread in L1029. Most of which fall between Central/North-West/East Ukraine.

Belarusians have a higher diversity in CTS1211. Perhaps this is in their case the stronger bet for the clades that were more representative in Southern Belarus.

L1029 remains more dominant in South-West Belarus toward the border with Ukraine and Poland (where it's clade diversity increases).

As far as we know I2a-Din is 25% in Eastern and Western Polesye and M458 is 25% in Eastern Polesye and 10% in Western Polesye..

[Image: vxiRbil.png]

Again, percentage means little when diversity is lacking. 

Belarusians are predominantly under YP417. Even then, they are dominated leaps and bounds by Z280.

A little ridiculous to claim L1029 originates in a population that has no diversity of the branch within said population. No one uses such backwards logic when discussing diversity of other haplogroups.

I cannot comment for Y3120, however, in the case of L1029, there is no diversity in Belarus. Belarus could be 90% L1029 and if that 90% is exclusively YP417 it still wouldn't mean much.

Despite the level of percentages of E-V13 in Albanians for instance, there is relatively not much diversity in the wider lineage, as Albanian percentages mostly belongs to a few clades. No one argues for all E-V13 originating within the Albanian population do they?

Of the 27 WGS samples for Belarus on L1029, only 2 samples belong to branches between 1300-1700ybp. Overwhelming majority of Belarusians are only holding TMRCAs of 300-1100 years lol. They all share branches with Poles who are far more basal.

On ftDNA there is 1 basal L1029 Belarusian (which is not confirmed as it's only STR) compared to 150 Germans and 140 Poles. 

You can try the whole argument of "well Belarusians aren't very well tested". Yet, even when we had smaller sample sizes among Germans and Poles, they have a bunch of diversity in L1029. If the decent amount of Belarusians tested haven't shifted this diversity; saying it originates in Belarus a million times won't change it, and more tested Belarusians won't change it either.

This is not to say that I am arguing for a home for Slavs outside of Belarus in originality/urheimat. However, this is to say that you cannot group all of L1029 within Kiev culture, because the berden of proof is on you.

Not only do you lack aDNA to support an absolutist position, but you also lack modern DNA results to even support such a claim.

Right now modern DNA and aDNA is stacked against such a claim.
leonardo and Vinitharya like this post
Reply
(06-12-2024, 10:24 PM)leonardo Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:18 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:05 PM)leonardo Wrote: And how about M458?

I don't know. I wasn't much interested in M458.
Old studies calculated diversity according to Y-STR values. Phylogeographer maps are not realistic because Belarus is undersampled.

No opinion or interest? Odd. I don't think you will find  the highest diversity of M458 in Belarus. That's my opinion.

Your opinion is more supported by data than the opposite opinion support by nada/zilch.

The whole "undersampled" argument is just what they fall back on when they have no evidence to support their claim. And his admittance to not really knowing much about M458 doesn't help either.

Swedes and Belarusians have roughly an equal amount of L1029 tested, and Sweden even has more diversity in the branch. Even some other undersampled nations have more diversity in L1029 with an equal number of samples under M458. Out of 97 Belarusians on M458, 1 is under YP263, and a relatively young clade lol. around 26 are all under YP417, and a good amount under another very Eastern Sub-clade.

On yfull, not one of the Belarusians have a tmrca under L1029 further than 1600-1750, and of those, you can count on 1 hand. The rest belong to clades with tmrca of 300-1100 years, with basal Poles and Germans upstream.

It's clear L1029 Diversity is not in Belarus. remove YP417, and Belarus doesn't even light up...
Vinitharya and leonardo like this post
Reply
(06-12-2024, 11:16 PM)okshtunas Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 09:15 PM)ph2ter Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 08:19 PM)okshtunas Wrote: So do they have actual aDNA from the migration era Slavs of Belarus and Ukraine?

A few past papers have made such claims with zero aDNA to back it up. Mainly taking their stance based on autosomal. Personally I am of the opinion that the main vehicle of Slavic migration came from that area. However, I am a little more careful to group the entirety of Y-DNA sub-clades under a given line to this expansion.

Rather, I wouldn't be surprised if more peripheral lineages outside this zone were absorbed upon the migration and then pushed with the expansion, as opposed to isolating all Y-DNA together in that area.

If we look at the diversity of M458 for instance (say L1029), only YP417 perfectly fits within Northern Ukraine/Southern Belarus. Same cannot be said for other sub-clades which may have been absorbed when "Slavs-Proper" or rather Slavs of the Kiev cultural type left the area. The more and more are tested, we can see in relation to M458, YP417 and L260 (in case of Ukraine - can't recall specific clades) have a higher representation among them. Whereas, Only in the case of Ukrainians do we see a little more of a diverse spread in L1029. Most of which fall between Central/North-West/East Ukraine.

Belarusians have a higher diversity in CTS1211. Perhaps this is in their case the stronger bet for the clades that were more representative in Southern Belarus.

L1029 remains more dominant in South-West Belarus toward the border with Ukraine and Poland (where it's clade diversity increases).

As far as we know I2a-Din is 25% in Eastern and Western Polesye and M458 is 25% in Eastern Polesye and 10% in Western Polesye..

[Image: vxiRbil.png]

Again, percentage means little when diversity is lacking. 

Belarusians are predominantly under YP417. Even then, they are dominated leaps and bounds by Z280.

A little ridiculous to claim L1029 originates in a population that has no diversity of the branch within said population. No one uses such backwards logic when discussing diversity of other haplogroups.

I cannot comment for Y3120, however, in the case of L1029, there is no diversity in Belarus. Belarus could be 90% L1029 and if that 90% is exclusively YP417 it still wouldn't mean much.

Despite the level of percentages of E-V13 in Albanians for instance, there is relatively not much diversity in the wider lineage, as Albanian percentages mostly belongs to a few clades. No one argues for all E-V13 originating within the Albanian population do they?

Of the 27 WGS samples for Belarus on L1029, only 2 samples belong to branches between 1300-1700ybp. Overwhelming majority of Belarusians are only holding TMRCAs of 300-1100 years lol. They all share branches with Poles who are far more basal.

On ftDNA there is 1 basal L1029 Belarusian (which is not confirmed as it's only STR) compared to 150 Germans and 140 Poles. 

You can try the whole argument of "well Belarusians aren't very well tested". Yet, even when we had smaller sample sizes among Germans and Poles, they have a bunch of diversity in L1029. If the decent amount of Belarusians tested haven't shifted this diversity; saying it originates in Belarus a million times won't change it, and more tested Belarusians won't change it either.

This is not to say that I am arguing for a home for Slavs outside of Belarus in originality/urheimat. However, this is to say that you cannot group all of L1029 within Kiev culture, because the berden of proof is on you.

Not only do you lack aDNA to support an absolutist position, but you also lack modern DNA results to even support such a claim.

Right now modern DNA and aDNA is stacked against such a claim.

Where I argued that M458 has the highest diversity in Belarus?
You're arguing with a strawman.
Reply
(06-12-2024, 10:39 PM)ph2ter Wrote: When I started to take an interest in Y-DNA, I was primarily interested only in my group. What's weird about that?

Hopefully, one of the Mödling Slavic-like samples belong to I-Y3120. If not, I'm sure that we'll have Slavic-like 6th-7th c. samples that belong to I-Y3120 soon. I know about one such sample that is waiting for publication.

Is I10430 currently the earliest (679 - 823 CE) published I-Y3120 Slavic-like (slightly mixed though) aDNA sample?
ph2ter likes this post
Reply
(06-13-2024, 06:47 AM)Radko Wrote:
(06-12-2024, 10:39 PM)ph2ter Wrote: When I started to take an interest in Y-DNA, I was primarily interested only in my group. What's weird about that?

Hopefully, one of the Mödling Slavic-like samples belong to I-Y3120. If not, I'm sure that we'll have Slavic-like 6th-7th c. samples that belong to I-Y3120 soon. I know about one such sample that is waiting for publication.

Is I10430 currently the earliest (679 - 823 CE) published I-Y3120 Slavic-like (slightly mixed though) aDNA sample?

Yes, he is still the oldest.
Radko likes this post
Reply
We'll see what Gretzinger's conclusions will look like after the reviews, but I think reviewers should also notice that mass migration without men is a pure abstraction.
Reply
But women's migration is also out of the question here, because Polish maternal lines are mostly autochthonous and more closely related to the western than eastern range of the Slavs.
Reply
Preliminary PCA with Bronze Age samples (PLxxx) from Poland.

[Image: PCA-Bronze-Age.png]

PL170-190 are the Lusatian culture samples from central-southern Poland. They are from the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age (late Lusatian culture)

Bear in mind that this is very early analysis...We have to be patient Wink
FR9CZ6, VladMC, Gordius And 5 others like this post
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 3 Guest(s)