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Seeing language from the DNA
#7
(02-04-2024, 06:00 PM)Bjørn Wrote: I would like to interject, as I’ve found Jaska’s discussions about this to be very common sense and haven’t quite understood why some argue so strenuously against it (not you JonikW, mainly on other sites). I think the English and Hungarian examples show good parallels.

In the case of England, we know what the Germanic tribes spoke, there is literary and archaeological evidence of their migrations, and now we have aDNA correlations. If we go further back, though, as shown by the interesting proto-Germanic discussions here, we can’t say with certainty how, why, and when these Germanic tribes spoke a Germanic language and we can’t say which exact genetic components are related. We know I1 is related to the spread of these tribes (as shown in England) and most of us here think I1 populations probably played a role in the early stages of Germanic languages, but we don’t necessarily have proof that it was there in the founding stages of the language.

It is similar in Hungary. We know who brought the Uralic languages and we now have a genetic profile of those people. However, how and when the ancestors of the Hungarian conquerers first used such language and what specific genetic components were applicable at that exact stage cannot be stated with complete certainty at this time, as far as I can tell. Some of the purported methods of Uralic expansion with associated genetic components may be true, but they shouldn’t be treated as fact- which I feel is one of Jaska’s main points.

I would like to add that, at least as much as one must exercise caution when attempting to interpret the role of bearers of Y-DNA haplogroup I1 in the genesis of the Proto-Germanic language, one must exercise caution when attempting to interpret the role played by e.g. bearers of Y-DNA haplogroup N-Tat in the genesis of the Hungarian (Magyar) language. The Hungarian language has a lir (Chuvash-like) Turkic layer as well as at least one layer of unknown linguistic affiliation (i.e. possible influence from some extinct language isolate), and these layers should have been added to the (proto-)Magyar language prior to the migration of (proto-)Magyars into Hungary. I would like one of the rabid proponents of the "N-Tat=ancient Samoyeds(or Late Neolithic/Bronze Age Yakutians or whatever)=Proto-Uralic speakers" hypothesis to explain why they do not need to account for any genetic influence on the Hungarian conquerors that may have originated from Turkic-speaking or non-Uralic language isolate-speaking ancestors of those Hungarian conquerors. They also never seem to feel a need to explain why N-Tat is not particularly common among actual present-day speakers of Samoyedic languages despite insisting that these people are essentially pure-blooded descendants of speakers of the Proto-Uralic language.
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Messages In This Thread
Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 12:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Quint - 02-04-2024, 04:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Bjørn - 02-04-2024, 06:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Ebizur - 02-04-2024, 07:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 09:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-04-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-04-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 04:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 01:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 12:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Vinitharya - 02-05-2024, 02:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 09:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 05:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 06:12 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 06:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 08:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 08:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 08:57 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 12:17 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 08:20 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-06-2024, 05:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 06:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 08:56 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 03:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Gortaleen - 02-06-2024, 03:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-06-2024, 04:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 05:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 09:27 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-07-2024, 01:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 12:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-07-2024, 12:31 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-07-2024, 05:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-07-2024, 01:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 05:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-09-2024, 06:28 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-09-2024, 06:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-09-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 06:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-10-2024, 10:03 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 10:54 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 04:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 05:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 05:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 05:41 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:45 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-11-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 12:42 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:24 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 12:17 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 01:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 01:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 04:01 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 02:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 03:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:13 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:24 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 10:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 03:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:53 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rober_tce - 02-12-2024, 11:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 11:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Pylsteen - 02-13-2024, 04:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 05:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-13-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 07:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 07:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 08:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 10:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:00 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-14-2024, 02:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 05:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-17-2024, 05:14 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-19-2024, 06:57 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 12:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 09:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:08 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 11:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 12:50 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 01:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 06:36 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 10:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Queequeg - 02-20-2024, 02:02 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:45 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-26-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-26-2024, 11:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-09-2024, 10:19 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-12-2024, 11:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 12:58 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 01:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 09:14 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:30 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:10 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 10:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 11:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 11:37 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 10:51 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 01:44 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 02:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 04-14-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 06:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 07:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 04-14-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 08:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 04-15-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 07:22 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-15-2024, 08:42 PM

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