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Seeing language from the DNA
(04-13-2024, 10:29 AM)Jaska Wrote: Alanarchae:
Quote:In simple societies there is no mechanism or institutions where an entire language can spread without significant human movement.

Nobody claims that language spreads without human movement. But we know that language spread does not require overpowering majority of immigrants. Therefore, you cannot just decide that majority ancestry is the one connected to the language. You will only get contradicting results by that method: try to follow the language from the DNA in cases like Estonians vs. Nganasan, Turkish vs. Yakuts, Norwegians vs. Sardinians vs. Iranians, etc. Please try – only then you will understand the problem.

Alanarchae:
Quote:The only possible other way I can think of a common dialect being shared widely for 1000s of years without migration in simpler societies is if  there is practically unbroken intense interaction between groups who  all shared an earlier prior mother language so they all basically evolved in the same direction to share v similar descendant dialects

What are you trying to say with this?

Alanarchae:
Quote:But I don’t agree that you can’t infer anything about language from DNA, isotopes and  archaeology. These all can demonstrate  human permanent or temporary movements and contacts and a dialect cannot spread or converge without a human component in simple tribal societies.

Of course we can see movements of people and cultural influences from the genetic and archaeological results. The problem here is that there are always many of them, yet still only one extant language lineage. You cannot just throw a dice or arbitrarily decide which migration or influence is connected to certain language. There is no way how you can see which trait was connected to the spread of the extant language lineage to this region, instead of some other ancient language lineage.

The only scientific method is that you take the linguistic results and see if any of those genetic or cultural traits is a match for them concerning time, place, and the direction of expansion. Can you understand this?

It depends what geographical area you are talking about. It would indeed be difficult in a busy highway kind of area of historical movements but there are other areas where DNA only shows one or two significant post-Neolithic population changes prior to the first linguistic/historical attestation of language . So the choice of when’s the later attested historical language arrived or evolved is very small. 

By the way I suspect isotopes may prove as important as DNA because there is clear evidence from the bronze age into historic times of the practice of the elites fostering each others children over long distances. Basically swapping their kids in infancy and then returning to their home tribe as young adults. That is a great way to ensure dialects among the elites stay converged/divergence is seriously slowed artificially. I actually think this is likely a key factor in at least some of the distributing of Celtic as a dialect spoken by elites. ie lots of temporary migration among the elites of bronze  age Europe where future kings and chiefs etc were fully immersed since infancy in the language, culture and beliefs of other tribes before returning home in adulthood more like a member of his foster tribe than his biological one. That imo, other than permanent migration, is likely the most important mechanism in language in later prehistory
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Messages In This Thread
Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 12:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Quint - 02-04-2024, 04:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Bjørn - 02-04-2024, 06:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Ebizur - 02-04-2024, 07:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 09:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-04-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-04-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 04:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 01:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 12:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Vinitharya - 02-05-2024, 02:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 09:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 05:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 06:12 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 06:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 08:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 08:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 08:57 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 12:17 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 08:20 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-06-2024, 05:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 06:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 08:56 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 03:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Gortaleen - 02-06-2024, 03:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-06-2024, 04:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 05:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 09:27 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-07-2024, 01:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 12:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-07-2024, 12:31 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-07-2024, 05:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-07-2024, 01:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 05:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-09-2024, 06:28 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-09-2024, 06:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-09-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 06:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-10-2024, 10:03 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 10:54 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 04:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 05:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 05:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 05:41 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:45 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-11-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 12:42 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:24 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 12:17 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 01:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 01:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 04:01 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 02:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 03:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:13 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:24 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 10:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 03:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:53 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rober_tce - 02-12-2024, 11:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 11:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Pylsteen - 02-13-2024, 04:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 05:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-13-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 07:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 07:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 08:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 10:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:00 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-14-2024, 02:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 05:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-17-2024, 05:14 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-19-2024, 06:57 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 12:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 09:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:08 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 11:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 12:50 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 01:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 06:36 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 10:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Queequeg - 02-20-2024, 02:02 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:45 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-26-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-26-2024, 11:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-09-2024, 10:19 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-12-2024, 11:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 12:58 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 01:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 09:14 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:30 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:10 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 10:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 11:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 11:37 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 10:51 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 01:44 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 02:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 04-14-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 06:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 07:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 04-14-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 08:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 04-15-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 07:22 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-15-2024, 08:42 PM

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