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Seeing language from the DNA
(02-14-2024, 02:59 AM)Kale Wrote: Another question pertaining to understanding the dynamics of proto-languages...
Could a sequence of events happen as follows?
1) Speakers of a language expand from a small territory to a medium territory and form a range of dialects.
2) Some event happens that increases contact/interaction between the dialect communities (increase in mobility, trade, etc.)
3) Some degree of linguistic convergence occurs (but not total).
4) The 'culture' expands on multiple frontiers, eventually developing dialects (or further developing them) in the new territories.
Would the dialects that developed during stage 1 appear to have developed during stage 4, as a result of the convergence during stage 3?

If they were true dialects so that there were also separating sound changes, these never level back. It is impossible that all the same sound changes would have later reversed exactly the same way. So the sound changes would still reveal the earlier dialect boundaries, and the newer dialectal differences were layered upon them.

______________Speech communities:
Stage 1 dialects: AAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCC
Stage 4 dialects: 111111 222222 3333333 444444

In the present languages we would still be able to see that the earlier dialect boundaries were in different spots (between communities A1 and B1; between communities B4 and C4) than the later dialect boundaries. 

Finnish and Estonian languages are examples of languages having the present language boundary very different from the ancient dialect boundaries. Until recently, South Estonian dialects have been considered part of Estonian language due to their long convergence, but still the ancient sound changes show that South Estonian was the first unit to diverge from Proto-Finnic. North Estonian and Finnish share the same development (*kakti '2'):

__Nominative : genitive : partitive : essive__
1. *kakti : *kakte-n : *kakte-ta : *kakte-na 
2. *kakci : *kakte-n : *kakte-ta : *kakte-na 
3. *kakci : *kahte-n : *kahte-ta : *kahte-na 
4. *kaksi : *kahde-n : *kahte-da : *kahte-na 
5a. kaksi : kahde-n : kaht-a : kahte-na (Finnish)
5b. kaks  :  kahe  :  kaht  :  kahe-na (Estonian)

On the other hand, South Estonian development has been different since the stage 3:

__Nominative : genitive : partitive : essive__
1. *kakti : *kakte-n : *kakte-ta : *kakte-na 
2. *kakci : *kakte-n : *kakte-ta : *kakte-na 
3. *kakci : *katte-n : *katte-ta : *katte-na 
4. *katsi : *katë-n : *kattë-da : *kattë-na 
5. *katś : *katë-n : *kattë-da : *kattë-na 
6. katś  :  katõ  :  kattõ (South Estonian; essive is not productive)

Shared convergence development between North and South Estonian (loss of final vowel; loss of genitive *-n; development of consonant gradation) cannot prevent us from seeing that there also were early sound changes separating South Estonian from North Estonian (*kt > *tt; progressive palatal harmony *a-e > *a-ë).
JonikW, Kale, JMcB And 2 others like this post
~ Per aspera ad hominem ~
Y-DNA: N-Z1936 >> CTS8565 >> BY22114 (Savonian)
mtDNA: H5a1e (Northern Fennoscandian)
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Messages In This Thread
Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 12:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Quint - 02-04-2024, 04:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Bjørn - 02-04-2024, 06:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Ebizur - 02-04-2024, 07:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 09:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-04-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-04-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 04:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 01:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 12:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Vinitharya - 02-05-2024, 02:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 09:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 05:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 06:12 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 06:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 08:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 08:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 08:57 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 12:17 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 08:20 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-06-2024, 05:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 06:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 08:56 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 03:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Gortaleen - 02-06-2024, 03:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-06-2024, 04:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 05:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 09:27 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-07-2024, 01:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 12:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-07-2024, 12:31 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-07-2024, 05:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-07-2024, 01:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 05:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-09-2024, 06:28 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-09-2024, 06:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-09-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 06:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-10-2024, 10:03 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 10:54 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 04:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 05:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 05:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 05:41 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:45 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-11-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 12:42 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:24 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 12:17 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 01:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 01:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 04:01 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 02:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 03:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:13 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:24 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 10:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 03:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:53 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rober_tce - 02-12-2024, 11:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 11:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Pylsteen - 02-13-2024, 04:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 05:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-13-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 07:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 07:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 08:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 10:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:00 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-14-2024, 02:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 05:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-17-2024, 05:14 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-19-2024, 06:57 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 12:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 09:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:08 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 11:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 12:50 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 01:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 06:36 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 10:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Queequeg - 02-20-2024, 02:02 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:45 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-26-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-26-2024, 11:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-09-2024, 10:19 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-12-2024, 11:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 12:58 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 01:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 09:14 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:30 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:10 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 10:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 11:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 11:37 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 10:51 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 01:44 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 02:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 04-14-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 06:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 07:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 04-14-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 08:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 04-15-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 07:22 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-15-2024, 08:42 PM

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