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Seeing language from the DNA
(02-13-2024, 03:42 PM)Kale Wrote:
(02-12-2024, 10:35 PM)Jaska Wrote: Results concerning distant relatedness or ancient contacts are contradicting: PrePIE could have been spoken in the northeast, close to Pre-Proto-Uralic; or it could have been spoken in the south, close to the Caucasian language families.

I'm not versed in linguistics at all, so I defer to you to assess my understanding here.
Would a perfectly reconstructed proto-language really be accurate in such a way that if someone with complete knowledge of it, plopped back into the right village at the right time, would speak 100% identically to the people in that place? Or was there never a people that spoke that language 100% exactly, but people over a broader region and time would speak dialects that would be largely understandable by it?
If the latter, are the PPU and Caucasian contacts really contradicting? Could not broadly PPIE dialects have encompassed the whole region between them, and those on the frontiers have filtered the influences throughout the region?

This is a good question. The more there are independent branches which have developed to different  directions, the more certain the reconstructions become. Of course there will always be minor details to which will never get absolute certainty, like what was the actual phonetic realization of the Indo-European laryngeals or was the Proto-Uralic non-low vowel in later syllables *i or *ǝ, but there are probably greater instance-related variation in the pronunciation of any single living individual speaking any language of the world (therefore the dialect question weighs less here). 

Just imagine yourself speaking your native language while yawning, while heavily drunk or sedated, between your closed teeth while lifting a heavy weight etc. Still the others can understand you. So, the phonological reconstruction must be close enough so that it does not cause any real problems for intelligibility.

More difficult is the vocabulary, because languages lose words all the time. After those 4000-6000 years since the proto-languages, huge number of words has been lost - or they have been preserved only in so few languages that we cannot recognize their descending from the proto-language. The younger the loanword layer, the more it usually contains words. There are thousands of Swedish loanwords in Finnish, but only few hundred words inherited from Proto-Uralic. 

The secondary extent of some stage of Proto-Indo-European could have been so wide, but the primary narrow homeland is still an inescapable fact, because there can be no uniform language without the narrow primary homeland. In that case it would be interesting to compare, do either the Indo-Caucasian or the Indo-Uralic allegedly shared ancient features indicate greater time depth than the other. For this I cannot say anything at the moment. Perhaps some nostraticists etc. have compared these language families, but unfortunately in that framework the criteria are too loose, so that the data must contain a lot of false positive "cognates."
jdean, JonikW, JMcB like this post
~ Per aspera ad hominem ~
Y-DNA: N-Z1936 >> CTS8565 >> BY22114 (Savonian)
mtDNA: H5a1e (Northern Fennoscandian)
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Messages In This Thread
Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 12:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Quint - 02-04-2024, 04:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Bjørn - 02-04-2024, 06:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Ebizur - 02-04-2024, 07:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 09:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-04-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-04-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 04:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 01:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 12:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Vinitharya - 02-05-2024, 02:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 09:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 05:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 06:12 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 06:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 08:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 08:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 08:57 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 12:17 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 08:20 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-06-2024, 05:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 06:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 08:56 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 03:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Gortaleen - 02-06-2024, 03:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-06-2024, 04:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 05:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 09:27 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-07-2024, 01:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 12:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-07-2024, 12:31 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-07-2024, 05:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-07-2024, 01:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 05:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-09-2024, 06:28 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-09-2024, 06:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-09-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 06:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-10-2024, 10:03 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 10:54 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 04:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 05:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 05:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 05:41 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:45 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-11-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 12:42 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:24 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 12:17 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 01:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 01:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 04:01 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 02:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 03:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:13 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:24 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 10:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 03:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:53 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rober_tce - 02-12-2024, 11:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 11:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Pylsteen - 02-13-2024, 04:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 05:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-13-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 07:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 07:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 08:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 10:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:00 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-14-2024, 02:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 05:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-17-2024, 05:14 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-19-2024, 06:57 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 12:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 09:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:08 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 11:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 12:50 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 01:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 06:36 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 10:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Queequeg - 02-20-2024, 02:02 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:45 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-26-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-26-2024, 11:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-09-2024, 10:19 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-12-2024, 11:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 12:58 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 01:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 09:14 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:30 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:10 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 10:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 11:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 11:37 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 10:51 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 01:44 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 02:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 04-14-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 06:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 07:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 04-14-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 08:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 04-15-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 07:22 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-15-2024, 08:42 PM

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