H10e does ring a Bell!

[Rodoorn]

Regarding the mating networks, what we know from the great Lech valley study in Germany (Mittnik et al.) is that all (!) of the wives of the farmers  of the early bronze age came from outside the valley and that all (!) of the daughters left the valley from a certain age on. No marriages within the valley over several generations. It might be possible to extrapolate this habit back into the Dutch BB age.

Thanks, totally agree. An add the Lech woman had for a big chunk H (unfortunately I couldn't detect the subclade....).

[Isidro]

I like your thread, I have always been fascinated by my HV0 haplogroup. After 15 years reading about it's origins I've learned about so may fascinating things about migrations and cultures that it was worth it even if I get cremated before finding an uncontested origin. I am no expert and basically an observer but I have noticed that a lot of discrepancies do not come from the tests themselves but it's interpretations and one thing that keeps nagging at me is the gap of timing between events, and of course context; not only for MtDNA but Y-Chromosome.
At any rate it's a lot of fun and learn at the same time. I have come across this Open Access publication and want to share:

The Bell Beaker Culture in All its Forms
Proceedings of the 22nd Meeting of ‘Archéologie et Gobelets’ 2021 (Geneva, Switzerland)
edited by
Claudine Abegg, Delia Carloni,
Florian Cousseau, Eve Derenne
and Jessica Ryan-Despraz
Foreword by Marie Besse

https://www.archaeopress.com/Archaeopres...%20beakers

[Rodoorn]

I like your thread, I have always been fascinated by my HV0 haplogroup. After 15 years reading about it's origins I've learned about so may fascinating things about migrations and cultures that it was worth it even if I get cremated before finding an uncontested origin. I am no expert and basically an observer but I have noticed that a lot of discrepancies do not come from the tests themselves but it's interpretations and one thing that keeps nagging at me is the gap of timing between events, and of course context; not only for MtDNA but Y-Chromosome.
At any rate it's a lot of fun and learn at the same time. I have come across this Open Access publication and want to share:

The Bell Beaker Culture in All its Forms
Proceedings of the 22nd Meeting of ‘Archéologie et Gobelets’ 2021 (Geneva, Switzerland)
edited by
Claudine Abegg, Delia Carloni,
Florian Cousseau, Eve Derenne
and Jessica Ryan-Despraz
Foreword by Marie Besse

https://www.archaeopress.com/Archaeopres...%20beakers

Thanks and thanks for the links and I will read it with interest! 

Some extra info, the woman of BB/EBA were (partly) extreme mobile, see for example this paper about BB/EBA in the Lech Valley.

"On the other hand, numerous nonlocal Sr isotope ratios among the females and the diversification of the maternal lineages point to exogamy and female mobility as a driving force of regional and supraregional communication and knowledge transmission in a time of major innovations. Systematic individual movements are an important factor in third millennium BCE societies in Eurasia and force us to reexamine evidence of “migration” that may actually be the result of large-scale institutionalized and possibly sex- and age-related individual mobility."

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1706355114

From this paper there is it with regard to one specific  BB Lech sample.

David Wesolowski states:

"- WEHR_1192SkA is very similar to Bell Beakers from the northern Netherlands with whom he shares the R1b-P312 Y-haplogroup, suggesting that he was part of a population that moved into the Lech Valley from potentially as far away as the North Sea coast"

In G25 wee see that my mother's au-dna is-taken in account the time in between her and this sample- is tremendous close! I took some North Dutch samples. She is rodoorn mom, her distance is pretty close.




Then I took the COMPLETE modern file of Davidski:



No competition even 10% difference with number 2.

And with the COMPLETE ancient file:


She is number 3 taken in account the more than 1000 years difference, and due to the fact that number 1 is from a place also from the Hondsrug (the city of Groningen-where I'm actual living in- is at the end of the Hondsrug).

Again NO evidence, still an indication she is autosomal tremendous near that BB Lech Valley sample (qualified by Davidski as North Dutch BB).

[Isidro]

^^^
Wow!. Nice work Roodorn.

[Isidro]

Fresh from the oven...if it was bread it would be still warm... . It's publications like these that makes me realize how much there is to find out.

Cintas-Peña, M., Garrido Pena, R., Herrero-Corral, A.M. et al. Isotopic Evidence for Mobility in the Copper and Bronze Age Cemetery of Humanejos (Parla, Madrid): a Diachronic Approach Using Biological and Archaeological Variables. J Archaeol Method Theory (2023). https://doi.org/10.1007/s10816-023-09633-6

"Type of Grave and Grave Goods
There are no significant diferences concerning type of burial structure across time
periods (Tables 7 and 8). Simple pit burials are the most common structure in all
periods, containing both males (or likely males) and female (or likely females) individuals. Some people during PBCA, NBCA-BCA, and EBA-MBA were inhumed in
other types of structures, such as stone structures or pit with post holes, but there are
no associations between the type of burial and strontium values."


"While these data could indicate a more frequent relationship between
Steppe ancestry, maleness, and Beaker grave goods, as has been already proposed (Olalde et al., 2019a), at Humanejos, we see a divergence between aDNA
and strontium values.
Strontium isotopic and genetic data inform us about mobility at diferent levels. Strontium isotopic values inform us about intra-lifetime mobility, while aDNA
can inform us about genetic ancestry and therefore infer ancestral homelands and
past migration events. Since our analysis is diachronic, one could expect some
degree of correspondence among these two types of information. However, the
strontium isotopic data presented here, with no statistically signifcant diferences
between males and females — and with no signs of increasing mobility in Bell
Beaker period — does not support large-scale male long-distant migration for
PBCA, NBCA-BCA, nor MBE-EBA. This contrasts with what is suggested by the
genetic data presented in Olalde et al., (2019). In fact, in the group of 44 individuals analyzed here, there is only one individual who clearly arrived to Humanejos from a very diferent geological area: female 19,643."

https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...23-09633-6

[Rodoorn]

From Embracing Bell Beaker:



Zoom in to Brandt et al (2013):

"Event D (~2,500 cal BC) is defined by the BBC (Movie S1), the western counterpart of the CWC (Fig. S2) (2–4). BBC groups appeared ~300 years later in Mittelelbe-Saale and coexisted alongside the CWC for more than 300 years (4). The BBC is distinguished from the CWC by the absence of haplogroup I and U2, and an overwhelmingly dominant genetic signature of haplogroup H (48.3%) (Fig. S3), leading to a separation of the BBC from all other Mittelelbe-Saale cultures in PCA and cluster analyses (Figs. 1C-D). H remains the most frequent haplogroup in West European populations today (~40%) (8–9) and was absent in Central European hunter-gatherers (10, 14), but prevalent in ancient populations of the Iberian Peninsula since Mesolithic times (20.7–70.7%) (Table S9) (22–24). As a result, the BBC clusters with these Iberian populations (Figs. 1C-D), whereas the results from Procrustes and MDS were less informative. However, genetic links between the BBC and modern Iberian populations were supported by genetic distance maps accounting for H sub-haplogroups (Fig. S7H) and ancient mitochondrial H genomes (12). These suggest the BBC was associated with a genetic influx from Southwest Europe (Movie S1), which is consistent with the oldest archaeological signs of this culture being found in Portugal ~2,800 cal BC (2–3)."


H10e subclade could be an excellent example of what Brandt et al are pointing at; it is mtDNa originated in Iberia and that shows up in BB context in Central Northern Europe (inc. Hondsrug Drenthe)- with links to the Rhineland and the Isles!

[Vinitharya]

My own Mtdna presents a counterpoint; it likely originated in the North German Plain but is now more common in the British Isles and Scandinavia. Unless I am descended from a line of female Viking warriors, or the slaves taken back to Scandinavia were disproportionately J1c2b, it is likely the Single Grave Bell Beakers spread the line to both the British Isles (with P312) and Scandinavia (with U106).