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The R1b-BY14355 Branch Under R1b-M343
#16
Interesting. I posted in the FTDNA R1b Project Facebook group about BY14355, and a member from Tunceli, Turkey, responded and said he is R1b-Y104457 (BY14355>PH155>PH2274>PH200>BY86775>FTA65546>Y104457).

Well, actually, he wrote that he is PH200, but on his own profile page he shows his Big Y results (Y104457). 

Small world!
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#17
(02-05-2024, 05:13 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I'm really curious about how populous a clade BY14355 is. It seems to me Central Asia and China are not all that well known when it comes to Y-DNA testing. How big is BY14355 in the regions one can see on the map below? And also Mongolia, the SW corner of which barely shows up on the map.

China is by far overrepresented among currently available East Asian Y-DNA data (even after accounting for its huge population size, of course) simply because Chinese researchers and companies have been forerunners in the region in adopting and developing DNA testing technology. Mongolia is also rather overrepresented considering its small population size.

The clear outlier in the region is the Japanese, who are horribly underrepresented among currently available East Asian Y-DNA data. It is getting to be quite ridiculous how little data are available regarding Japanese Y-DNA and how old and poorly resolved much of those data are.
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#18
(02-05-2024, 11:10 PM)Ebizur Wrote:
(02-05-2024, 05:13 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I'm really curious about how populous a clade BY14355 is. It seems to me Central Asia and China are not all that well known when it comes to Y-DNA testing. How big is BY14355 in the regions one can see on the map below? And also Mongolia, the SW corner of which barely shows up on the map.

China is by far overrepresented among currently available East Asian Y-DNA data (even after accounting for its huge population size, of course) simply because Chinese researchers and companies have been forerunners in the region in adopting and developing DNA testing technology. Mongolia is also rather overrepresented considering its small population size.

The clear outlier in the region is the Japanese, who are horribly underrepresented among currently available East Asian Y-DNA data. It is getting to be quite ridiculous how little data are available regarding Japanese Y-DNA and how old and poorly resolved much of those data are.

But are those Chinese and Mongolian Y-DNA stats available to us, and how much resolution do they have?
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#19
Thumbs Up 
My thanks to Albruic and the other admins for creating this subforum. It is much appreciated. 

I hope some actual BY14355 guys will show up here and post.
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#20
I wonder how things might have been different back in the spring of 2006 when I ordered my initial Y-37 test from FTDNA had we known at least some of the basic things about the R1b-M343 phylogenetic tree that we know now. Probably we would not have had to endure the whole Franco-Cantabrian LGM Refuge nonsense or to read over and over again just how crucial the Basques were and are. 

Of course, we had no ancient DNA at that time. Everything was based on modern Y-DNA frequency. Many people back then assumed that where a Y-DNA haplogroup is currently most frequent must be where it originated. One still runs across that error today. 

Even back in those days, however, there were a few people who pointed out that R1b STR variance decreases as one travels west from Western Asia and Eastern Europe, which hinted that R1b is older in the East than it is in the West.

Oh, well. Things are better now, but there are still a few dinosaurs out there holding out for Western Europe as the birthplace of R1b, or at least of R1b-M269.
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#21
(02-06-2024, 11:33 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: My thanks to Albruic and the other admins for creating this subforum. It is much appreciated. 

I hope some actual BY14355 guys will show up here and post.

BTW, I invited that R1b-Y104457 guy from Turkey here and asked him to bring anyone else he knows who is BY14355, as well. 

Hopefully at least he will show up.
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Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#22
Has anyone besides me bothered to look at FTDNA's Ancient Connections and Time Tree for R1b-BY14355? It's all Central Asian except for one likely Hun in Serbia dated 525-575 AD. Pretty amazing.
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Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#23
It’s a long time since i’ve thought about this basal area of R1b. Ma’lta was c.22000BC and was one of the last geverations of the middle upper palaeolithic culture of central Siberia. A culture that extended into Mongolia and NW China in the east to central Asia (think it was one of the stans. It pretty well died out or metamorphosised after Ma’lta boy who lived in the early LGM era. During the LGM there was a switch in Siberia and nearby to pressure flaked micro blades: This technology had reached the Urals by 14000BC snf the proto Butovo culture of the upper Volga by 9500BC . Same technology had reached the east Baltic in the form of Kunda culture by c. 8500BC. Several Kunda hunters were shown to be P297. The latter is dated to 12000BC by ftdna discovery. I suspect P297 occupied much of the Volga from the Baltic to Samara, travelling along it in the era 9500-8500BC.

So imo it still seems likely that P297 occurred around the Urals among migrants there from northern Asia.
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#24
It's amazing to me how the idea of R1b as ultimately western has hung on as long as it has. It still seems to be the common assumption. Yet here we have the only brother clade of L754 under R1b-M343 that we know of. It's very plainly Central Asian and has some exemplars like the Tarim Basin mummies who were strongly ANE plus some ANA (Ancient Northeast Asian). 

In addition, FTE1, the recently discovered brother clade to L761 under L754, thus far has modern samples only in China and Tajikistan. 

Guess we're going to need a really really old R1b-M343* sample from Asia to kill the western zombie.

I seriously need to quit reading the comments at Eurogenes. As smart as the author of that blog is, he allows comments by some of the dumbest humans on the planet, not to mention some of the most arrogant and ill mannered.
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Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#25
(02-12-2024, 03:43 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote: It's amazing to me how the idea of R1b as ultimately western has hung on as long as it has. It still seems to be the common assumption. Yet here we have the only brother clade of L754 under R1b-M343 that we know of. It's very plainly Central Asian and has some exemplars like the Tarim Basin mummies who were strongly ANE plus some ANA (Ancient Northeast Asian). 

In addition, FTE1, the recently discovered brother clade to L761 under L754, thus far has modern samples only in China and Tajikistan. 

Guess we're going to need a really really old R1b-M343* sample from Asia to kill the western zombie.

I seriously need to quit reading the comments at Eurogenes. As smart as the author of that blog is, he allows comments by some of the dumbest humans on the planet, not to mention some of the most arrogant and ill mannered.

I kind of get the impression that early R1b scattered in the LGM with some of it remaining in northern refugia and some of it migrating south into places like Iran and the Caucasus and into late gravettian of southey’s Europe (Villabruna). It looks to me like P297 stayed north, likely on the southern fringes of Siberia and the shadow of the inner central Asian mountains. I’m definitely thinking at least 2 or 3?streams west along different latitudes. I think they geographically had split into seperate groups by 14-15000BC. One maybe in SE Europe and another reaching the Urals. The southern route was earlier to spread but least impact while the northern route (P297) likely moved much slower in steps with long hiatuses in movement west.?
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#26
(02-06-2024, 12:50 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote:
(02-05-2024, 11:10 PM)Ebizur Wrote:
(02-05-2024, 05:13 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I'm really curious about how populous a clade BY14355 is. It seems to me Central Asia and China are not all that well known when it comes to Y-DNA testing. How big is BY14355 in the regions one can see on the map below? And also Mongolia, the SW corner of which barely shows up on the map.

China is by far overrepresented among currently available East Asian Y-DNA data (even after accounting for its huge population size, of course) simply because Chinese researchers and companies have been forerunners in the region in adopting and developing DNA testing technology. Mongolia is also rather overrepresented considering its small population size.

The clear outlier in the region is the Japanese, who are horribly underrepresented among currently available East Asian Y-DNA data. It is getting to be quite ridiculous how little data are available regarding Japanese Y-DNA and how old and poorly resolved much of those data are.

But are those Chinese and Mongolian Y-DNA stats available to us, and how much resolution do they have?
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