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Locating Pre Proto Uralic
#31
Many thanks, ph2ter! Looking good, for instance in terms of Asian/Siberian:

Restricted target: Q
Distance: 4.9743% / 0.04974252 | R3P
47.2 YAMNAYA
43.8 BSD
9.0 AMUR

...vs. the unrestricted target:Q
Distance: 4.1788% / 0.04178837

36.0 YAMNAYA
30.6 BSD
13.0 EEF
8.4 EHG
4.4 KOLYMA
2.8 WHG
2.4 AMUR
2.2 CHINA
0.2 LEVANT

...where 4,4 % Kolyma probably stands for Yakutia_MN in Yakutia_LNBA, whereas both 2,4 % Amur and 2,2 % China stand for the Trans Baikal component in Yakutia_LNBA. Would you happen to know what is the bright EHG-spot somewhere near Ural mountains?
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#32
(12-05-2023, 06:25 AM)Queequeg Wrote: Many thanks, ph2ter! Looking good, for instance in terms of Asian/Siberian:

Restricted target: Q
Distance: 4.9743% / 0.04974252 | R3P
47.2 YAMNAYA
43.8 BSD
9.0 AMUR

...vs. the unrestricted target:Q
Distance: 4.1788% / 0.04178837

36.0 YAMNAYA
30.6 BSD
13.0 EEF
8.4 EHG
4.4 KOLYMA
2.8 WHG
2.4 AMUR
2.2 CHINA
0.2 LEVANT

...where 4,4 % Kolyma probably stands for Yakutia_MN in Yakutia_LNBA, whereas both 2,4 % Amur and 2,2 % China stand for the Trans Baikal component in Yakutia_LNBA. Would you happen to know what is the bright EHG-spot somewhere near Ural mountains?

Kolyma is represented by the Kolyma_River_noUDG.SG neolithic sample. The bright EHG spot is on the Mari people.
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#33
We have recently learned that West Siberian hunter-gatherers had far more complex societies than earlier believed. They built defensive stone fortress(es) and had relatively large villages, with fixed buildings and structures. 8000 years ago. 

As this culture doesn't yet have well defined name I'm calling it Amnya culture. As a location this would fit pretty well with Jaska's idea of pre-proto-Uralic in Western Siberia and proto-Uralic just across the Urals. However, this newly discovered archeological marvel would also serve quite easily as pre-PIE homeland. Opponents of the so-called "Southern Arc" have many times pointed out that pre-PIE should rather be ANE/EHG derived than CHG. 

Let me hear what you think ?

[Image: urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:202311301126...3_fig1.png]
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#34
(12-13-2023, 10:48 AM)SeriesOfExtraordinaryEvents Wrote: Let me hear what you think ?

I think you could be right. Haak et al. (2015) labeled two finds from Karelia and Samara "Eastern Hunter Gatherer" [EHG], in contrast to a "Western Hunter Gatherer" [WHG] from Villabruna. But the oldest EHG find is meanwhile Peschanitsa1, Veretye culture in the area of Archangelsk [edit]. Steigen and Hummervikholmen 1 from Scandinavia are also EHGs, although beeing labeled SHG. Samara and Sidelkino might have come from the same northern region, moving south and following the Volga. Sidelkino was found about 100 m away from a Volga tributary, Samara is a city on the Volga. So if you look at the oldest discovery sites, these clusters could also have been labeled "Northern" and "Southern Hunter Gatherer". And this labeling would have opened a very different perspective.

There are many indications that the original Indoeuropean homeland is located in Arctic regions: Tilaks "Arctic home in the Vedas" for example, or the mythology of several Indoeuropean cultures. All this has been ignored so far.
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#35
Very intriguing discovery! However, it may be equally connected to Yeniseian languages or the unknown substrate in Ugric languages. 

Some aspects of this phenomenon suggest that it was not a purely internal development:

Quote:Among these pioneering sites are the earliest fortified settlements in northern Eurasia with evidence for hierarchical organisation indicated by pit houses of differing sizes; eight Stone Age examples are currently known (Borzunov Reference Borzunov2020; Figure 1). Another new site type that emerged in this period is the large, stratified mound (Russian kholm), with examples reaching 50m in diameter and up to 6m in height (Panina Reference Panina2011). These mounds are characterised by unusual features such as groups of human skulls, clay figurines, bone and antler, hearths and post-row structures, and are interpreted as ritual or sacrificial sites (Shorin Reference Shorin2017; Piezonka et al. Reference Piezonka2020).

Quote:Judging by the diversity of the early pottery and lithic inventories associated with this incipient Neolithic period, even at single sites such as Amnya I, it is presumed that different communities participated in the population increase.

Quote:Compared to the patchy and in many regions very sparse settlement evidence of the Mesolithic, the Neolithic period starting with the onset of pottery production around 6000 cal BC is characterized by a steep rise in the number of sites also in areas that were previously more or less empty, such as the low-lying parts of the north of the Western Siberian basin (Kosinskaya 2013) (Figure S1B). The socio-economic processes that characterize this horizon of transformation and intensification are the topic of the main article.
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#36
If I'm reading the Allentoft et al preprint in a correct way, see page 41, even NEO538 (Vologda Russia, late BA/early IA) who looks like Mansi, does not have any Neolithic West Siberia, neither the Levänluhta samples etc. Only BOO samples, if I'm right, do have Neolithic West Siberia, but according to Jaska they did not speak Uralic.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...6.full.pdf

This being the case and provided that (Pre Proto) Uralic was first the language of the people of the later Koptyaki Culture area, these people apparently can't have been based on WSHG type of a gene base. Or, we have to assume that Yakutia_LNBA migrants assumed Uralic without any genetic admixture.

It is kind of funny that later IA Steppe groups seem to have something based on WSHG, even if the Uralic speakers don't. Reminds me of the migration of Avars, lots of paternal N and autosomally first a mixture of genes just from the areas East of Baikal.
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#37
Old Yukaghir was even more Uralic-like than Kolyma and Tundra.
TWENTY in Omok recorded : kit kimneľ
NAME recorded in Old Yukaghir: nim, and Chuvan niv (today ńū)
Yukaghir even has the *kim(n) root for TEN, similar with the westernmost Uralic languages. Never present in Samoyedic or other eastern Uralic languages.
Another word not present in Samoyedic: Omok jalom THREE; today's Yukaghir languages do not have -om but -on/-oj; they still have jalm- in derivation forms
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#38
(12-04-2023, 09:17 PM)Ebizur Wrote:
(12-04-2023, 07:20 AM)Queequeg Wrote:
(11-28-2023, 02:14 AM)Queequeg Wrote: Quoting Helimski again: Uralic-Tungusic  "male", in this case a reindeer bull

"Ostj. Kaz. χ¢ r ‚Rentier-Stier’ und nenz. χora > russ. (Sibirien) хор, хóра
‚самец-производитель в оленьем стаде’; ngan. kurii
ia ‚Rentier-Stier’ (Abl. von kuru <
sam. *korå) > ewenk. (SSTMJa. I: 436) kurejka, kurajka, korejka ‘олень (дикий, самец –
весенне-летнее название)’, s. Steinitz, DEWO 536; Аникин ЭС 621-622 (mit Hinweisen
auf mögliche weitere Entlehnungen oder Parallelen), A&X."

Related, from a blog written by Juho Pystynen, a linguist:

"Most notably, Uralic parallels in eastern Siberia include even basic words for ‘reindeer’, an all-important livelihood animal for many groups these days, especially Chukotkan *qora (whence the ethnonym Koryak), Tungusic ⁽*⁾oron (or probably *xoron, with further diffusion after *x > ∅ in NTg) (whence the ethnonym Oroqen). Kolyma Yukaghir qoroj ‘two-year-old male reindeer’ is usually adduced here too, as well as loanwords further into Siberian Yupik. This has been already identified in earlier research as a Wanderwort originating in Proto-Uralic *kojəra ‘male [domestic?] animal’ > Proto-Samoyedic *korå ‘id.; bull reindeer’, which might have already had an allophonic [q-] in Proto-Samoyedic or even earlier. But we seem to lack especially clear evidence on who is to be credited for the original diffusion of this word. Yakut, as far as I know, has no reflex of it, splitting the Eastern Siberian region off from Samoyedic, and thus probably suggesting a pre-Turkic movement eastward. If so, then maybe even already at the time of the original Uralic expansion (which I think must have been partly eastwards too in any case)? Who knows. Maybe someone will eventually though, if we get e.g. some additional toponym data for guidance and keep inter-family comparative research going."

https://protouralic.wordpress.com/

"One of the most commonly accepted hypotheses is that the term is derived from Manchu language: орунчунь (orunchun) meaning "deer people", "deer herders" (cf. pinyin "Èlúnchūn"). "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oroqen_people

EDIT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people

Where does the "jə"-part in the suggested Proto Uralic form *kojəra ‘male [domestic?] animal’ actually come from? BTW according to the Swadesh list of Manchu EDIT the word for "I" is bi, cf. Finnish minä, which is kind of interesting taking into account the fact that the Manchu word for "we" is be, cf. Finnish me.

https://panglossa.fandom.com/wiki/Swades..._languages
When one compares single words from so many different languages simultaneously, one has to wonder also about the possibility of perceived resemblance by random chance.

The Korean language has a word 고라니 korani (alternatively may be romanized as gorani), which refers to one of the most common species of deer (or large wild mammal in general) in Korea: Hydropotes inermis argyropus. Someone might say, "Hydropotes inermis are creepy-looking animals that have large fangs; no one would ever use a word that previously has referred to reindeer to refer to such a creature, nor vice versa," but the fact is that both Rangifer tarandus and Hydropotes inermis are cervids. Furthermore, the Korean language does not have a native word for "reindeer" because those animals are not naturally found so far south as Korea; the Koreans sometimes have used the Ainu > Japanese word tonakai, which may ultimately be Nivkh in origin (possibly altered by the Ainu because of interference from the Ainu adjective tunas "fast, quick, nimble"), and they currently use the Sinitic compound sullok < Chinese 馴 "tame" + Chinese 鹿 "deer" to refer to reindeer. Is the resemblance between Korean korani "water deer, Hydropotes inermis" and the Tungusic words for "(rein)deer" coincidental, or do these words originate from the same etymon?

As for the Manchu personal pronouns, some strong similarities in the personal pronouns of all "Altaic" and Uralic languages have been noted for a long time, and are in fact one of the primary motivations of the Ural-Altaic theory. Besides the first-person plural exclusive pronoun be "we (not including you)" ~ men- "us (not including you)," Manchu also has a pronoun muse "I and thou/you, we/us [inclusive of the person or persons being addressed]," which appears to be originally a compound of bi "I" plus si "thou" or suwe "you (all)" (perhaps with some conjoining element meaning "and" that has subsequently elided). Manchu has bi "I" but also mini "my" (-i is the Manchu genitive case suffix), minde "[dative/locative case] to/at/on/in me," mimbe "[accusative case] me," minci "[ablative case] from me, than I/me." Mongolian also has bi for "I" but miniĭ [миний] for "my"; these two forms are basically identically to their Manchu semantic equivalents, but the remaining forms of the paradigm for the first-person singular pronoun in Mongolian are irregular (dative/locative nadad "to/at/on/in me," accusative namaĭg "me," ablative nadaas "from me," instrumental nadaar "using me," comitative nadtaĭ "[together] with me," directive nadruu "toward me": cf. Korean first-person singular pronoun na and Chinese first-person pronoun *ŋaː > ). The alternation between b and m in the Manchu (as well as Mongolian bi vs. miniĭ) personal pronouns may be ascribable to regressive nasal assimilation, which is a very common phonological process in Siberian languages, if one assumes that the older forms of the first-person pronouns should have had a */b/ in initial position.

In regard to the Uralic *kojǝ vs. *kojǝ-ra problem, one would be remiss not to mention Yukaghir koy "young man, lad; male (in reference to a younger sibling, as opposed to a female younger sibling i.e. little sister: the Yukaghir would say something that literally means 'young.man-younger.sibling' to mean 'little brother,' whereas they would say something that literally means 'young.woman-younger.sibling' to mean 'little sister')." There are also several Ainu words that are vaguely similar (e.g. kur "person," okkay(o) "man, male," (h)oku "husband").

Indo-European has this m-T pronoun feature too. I guess it is probably linked to the scarce Amur-like component in EHG, SHG and Steppe Maykop. (for example, Karelia_HG) EHG has 7% Amur-like in Kale's model.
***BELOW ARE JUST PERSONAL HYPOTHS***
I've found some interesting correspondences in Tungusic, including:
*bi 1st pronoun
-be acc. suffix
*gerbǖ NAME
*bēga MOON
*sigūn SUN
*bira RIVER (similar to the IE root for SEA)
*žube TWO
*žuban TEN
and more. It seems that Tung. *b vs PIE *m, Tung. *g vs PIE (some kind of)*hx
The ŋ-n couple is not so plausible, as it is present in different even random regions in the world. (as in Trans-New Guinean) While m-T is present in northern Eurasia and rarely anywhere else. (Siouan languages in NAmerica have m-T pronouns too)
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#39
Hello @HSFallen! Do you have anything regards Finnic word for the sun: Aurinko ?

My guess atm is that it's EHG.
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#40
(12-22-2023, 10:02 PM)SeriesOfExtraordinaryEvents Wrote: Hello @HSFallen! Do you have anything regards Finnic word for the sun: Aurinko ?

My guess atm is that it's EHG.

I don't know much about this word, but the word päivä is somehow similar to PYukaghir *puɣö SUN
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#41
I am currently reading 'Mid-holocene language connections between Asia and north America'. 2 hypotheses are proposed:
1- Eskimo-Yukaghir-Uralic
2- Dene-Yeniseian
In my opinion, Dene-Yeniseian is much more convincing and substantiated than Eskimo-Yukaghir-Uralic. Hypothese number 2 is fruitful. For example, understanding the evolution of syllable nuclei from a common Dene-Yeniseian ancestral language explains how Na-Dene glottalised obstruents first arose.
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#42
(12-22-2023, 10:02 PM)SeriesOfExtraordinaryEvents Wrote: Hello @HSFallen! Do you have anything regards Finnic word for the sun: Aurinko ?

My guess atm is that it's EHG.

I read about aurinko and it seems rather young and initially geographically limited (West Finland?) term with possible Baltic and Germanic parallels (austra - dawn; austrinko - aurinko - the one of the dawn/ East). Definitely not EHG material.
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#43
(12-23-2023, 01:28 PM)HSFallen Wrote:
(12-22-2023, 10:02 PM)SeriesOfExtraordinaryEvents Wrote: Hello @HSFallen! Do you have anything regards Finnic word for the sun: Aurinko ?

My guess atm is that it's EHG.

I don't know much about this word, but the word päivä is somehow similar to PYukaghir *puɣö SUN

Interestingly, a more similar vocalism in the stem for ‘sun’ was detected in these languages. Bugan is an Austroasiatic language, which is only spoken in the Yunnan Province. Lashi is a Lolo-Burmese language, which is spoken in the Yunnan Province and in Burma.
 
SUN
 
Bugan 2    pei             
Lashi 2       pei             
Estonian 2                    pEike        
Estonian 3                    pEike        
Estonian 4                    pEike        
Estonian Voro            pEiv           
Inari Saami                   peivi          
Inari Saami 2               peivi          
Ingrian      pEivikEs   
Karelian    pEivEine  
North Karelian           pEivE
Olonets Karelian       pEivi
Olonets Karelian       pEivEinE
Skolt Saami                  peiv           
Skolt Saami                  pEiv           
Skolt Saami 2              pEivvy~3 
Veps          pEivEine  
Veps 2       pEivEinE   
 
Source: https://asjp.clld.org/
 
“The database of the Automated Similarity Judgment Program (ASJP) aims to contain 40-item word lists of all the world's languages.“
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