A thread for Ancient DF19 samples ... we're up to 16

[Dewsloth]

As a Z17112 (of some variant), RKF would add to our list [bold ones confirmed by FTDNA].  
According to FTDNA Discover, "The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1450 BCE."
There are eight known surviving lines of descent from Z17112:  R-Z27257, R-S17075, R-PH3649, R-Z21380, R-FT354149, R-FTA73126, R-BY107827 and 1 yet unnamed lineage.

NEO52 1816 BCE Vattenledningen, Skåne, Sweden DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123 LN LN

R10657 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257/S9287 Batavi Auxiliary Roman

6DT23 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>FT214931/Z43034 Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman

HID001 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration

RKF263 [perhaps 530-680 CE?] Hungarian Avar-period cemetery, DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 Avar ally?

I17277 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>S10067 [per FTDNA]
--OR-- DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 Saxon? Migration/ME [per alternate analysis]

VK333 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Öland, Sweden DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123>Z29034>Z29040 Viking Viking

When/if we get Fenstanton and Koksijde analysis, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see more Z17112 if the quality allows.

[Dewsloth]

Four new ones in bold: I know there isn't enough DNA to confirm, but the more I look at this, the more HVN001 seems like a perfectly possible DF19 (Warini?)...

I5748 2579-2211 calBCE Oostwoud, Noord-Holland DF19>Z302* Aceramic Single Grave/Beaker Beaker

I13028 2456-2141 calBCE Ottoland-Kromme, Zuid-Holland DF19>DF88* Barbed Wire Beaker Beaker

NEO52 1816 BCE Vattenledningen, Skåne, Sweden DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123 LN LN

I26830 1620-1311 calBCE Wervershoof-Zwaagdijk, Noord-Holland DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281  Netherlands_MBA/Tumulus/Sögel-Wohlde Elp

I17607 800-550 BCE Louny, Stradonice, Czech Republic DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281  Czech_IA_Hallstatt C or D Hallstatt

----------[ Cremation Era Begins    ]----------------------

------------------Teutoburg Forest 9CE -------------------------------------

R10657 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S9287 Batavi Auxiliary Roman

-------------------Roman Conquest of Britain 43-87 CE ------------------------

------------------- Batavi Revolt 69-70 CE ----------------------------

CGG107761 CL013 (I037) 50 calBCE - 250 calCE Netherlands South-Holland Valkenburg Marktveld Roman Cemetery DF19>DF88 (mtDNA K1a3a1)   unknown IronAge Roman

CGG107763 CL006 (I079) 125 - 233 calCE Netherlands South-Holland Valkenburg Marktveld Roman Cemetery DF19>DF88 (mtDNA U5a2c1) unknown IronAge Roman

CGG019200  64-235 CE Denmark Jutland Illerup  DF19>Z302 (mtNDA T2b) weapon_sacrifice_site bog_skeleton

6DT23 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>Z43034 Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman

FEN012  40-400 CE Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire, England DF19 Unknown, Roman

RMPR31 400 CE Mausoleo di Augusto, Rome DF19>Z302>FT292232>FT11655>Z8193>BY3448>Z39459 Unknown Roman/Migration

HID001 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration

HID002 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281 Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration

RKF263 567-750[Just guessing here] CE Hungary DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 Langobard/Goth descendant?  Avar Period

IND002 400-800 CE Alt-Inden, North Rhine, Westphalia, Germany DF19>Z302>Z39292 Franks? Migration

KOS017  651-774 CE Koksijde, Belgium DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 Relocated Saxon Migration/ME

KOS016  671-822 CE Koksijde, Belgium DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 Relocated Saxon Migration/ME

I17277 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 Saxon? Migration/ME

VK333 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Oland, Sweden DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123>Z29034 Viking Viking

PCA0299 1000-1200 CE Groszowice, Opole, Poland DF19>DF88 Unknown ME

[Dewsloth]

We may have another ancient:
DF19 > DF88 > BY61838 skeleton (MX259) in a Bell Beaker community in Anselfingen (southern Germany), dated to ca. 2450 – 2200 BC.

Call is here:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...1942507897

Confirmed P312, "dubious" call through to BY61838 (a very rare DF88 subclade) -- FTDNA’s current estimate for the origin of BY61838 is between 2600 and 450 BC (huge range due to the limited number of available samples) from Germany and the UK.

Show Content

SpoilerMX259 BF680 47.854144 8.7737404 .. 0.5984496124 K1a3a K1a3a https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-...name=K1a3a K1a3a https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1a3a/ >K>K1>K1a>K1a3>K1a3a> K1 K .. R1b1a2a1a2 R1b-P312 P312 DF99; Z290>L21, etc. DF19>DF88>BY61838 (1x G->A) 12676 1 R1bDF19 R1b-BY61838 R-BY61838 R-BY61838 https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-d...=R-BY61838 R-DF88* https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/ R1b1a1b1a1a2e1(xa,xb,xc) >R>M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>DF19>DF88>BY61838> R1b R1bP312 Milan Rajevac 288392 0.390215 .. PASS n/a FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020 Direct: 95.4%; IntCal20, OxCal v4.4.2 Bronk Ramsey (2020); r:5; Atmospheric data from Reimer et al (2020). Reviewers caution against potential reservoir effect, not assessed

[Dewsloth]

As a Z17112 (of some variant), RKF would add to our list [bold ones confirmed by FTDNA].  
According to FTDNA Discover, "The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1450 BCE."
There are eight nine known surviving lines of descent from Z17112:  R-Z27257, R-S17075, R-PH3649, R-Z21380, R-FT354149, R-FTA73126, R-BY107827 and 2 yet unnamed lineages.
NEO52 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123 LN LN 1816 BCE Vattenledningen, Skåne, Sweden
R10657 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257/S9287 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria Batavi Auxiliary Roman
6DT23 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>FT214931/Z43034 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman
HID001 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration
RKF263 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 [perhaps 530-680 CE?] Hungarian Sarmatian-period cemetery, Sarmatian ally? 
KOS017 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z43277>Z43258>Z43261>Z43468  651-774 CE Koksijde Belgium, relocated Saxon
KOS016 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>L719>Z30475 671-822 CE Koksijde Belgium, relocated Saxon
I17277 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>S10067 [per FTDNA] 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England
--OR-- DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 Saxon? Migration/ME [per alternate analysis]
VK333 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123>Z29034>Z29040 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Öland, Sweden Viking Viking
When/if we get Fenstanton and Koksijde analysis, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see more Z17112 if the quality allows. [well that seems like a decent call now ]

Now we have the pair from Koksijde confirmed by FTDNA ^^^

[Pribislav]

I finally got the time to check all the subclades from the Block Tree, and there is nothing derived below Y6237/Z17112 in RKF263.

[Dewsloth]

I finally got the time to check all the subclades from the Block Tree, and there is nothing derived below Y6237/Z17112 in RKF263.

Thank you!  He's in Ajeje's ancients as Hungary_Avar_Rákóczifalva:RKF263__AD_679__Cov_77.96% so I wonder if he's just too deaminated/bashed up or if he's another unknown /unnamed subclade of Z17112 that still keep popping up.  

It would be nice to have some hints at his ancestry either taking a northern route through Poland (Goths/Vandals) or southern like a descendant of a Batavi Klosterneuburg-type auxiliary stationed in Pannonia.

[Pribislav]

Thank you!  He's in Ajeje's ancients as Hungary_Avar_Rákóczifalva:RKF263__AD_679__Cov_77.96% so I wonder if he's just too deaminated/bashed up or if he's another unknown /unnamed subclade of Z17112 that still keep popping up.  

It would be nice to have some hints at his ancestry either taking a northern route through Poland (Goths/Vandals) or southern like a descendant of a Batavi Klosterneuburg-type auxiliary stationed in Pannonia.

I think it's because of the suboptimal Y-chr coverage of the 1240K panel, many other haplogroups suffer from the same issue.

[ArmandoR1b]

As a Z17112 (of some variant), RKF would add to our list [bold ones confirmed by FTDNA].  
According to FTDNA Discover, "The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1450 BCE."
There are eight nine known surviving lines of descent from Z17112:  R-Z27257, R-S17075, R-PH3649, R-Z21380, R-FT354149, R-FTA73126, R-BY107827 and 2 yet unnamed lineages.
NEO52 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123 LN LN 1816 BCE Vattenledningen, Skåne, Sweden
R10657 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257/S9287 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria Batavi Auxiliary Roman
6DT23 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>FT214931/Z43034 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman
HID001 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration
RKF263 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 [perhaps 530-680 CE?] Hungarian Sarmatian-period cemetery, Sarmatian ally? 
KOS017 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z43277>Z43258>Z43261>Z43468  651-774 CE Koksijde Belgium, relocated Saxon
KOS016 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>L719>Z30475 671-822 CE Koksijde Belgium, relocated Saxon
I17277 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>S10067 [per FTDNA] 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England
--OR-- DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 Saxon? Migration/ME [per alternate analysis]
VK333 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123>Z29034>Z29040 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Öland, Sweden Viking Viking
When/if we get Fenstanton and Koksijde analysis, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see more Z17112 if the quality allows. [well that seems like a decent call now ]

Now we have the pair from Koksijde confirmed by FTDNA ^^^

Do you have a list of the Study Accession ids for those samples? I want to check my database against those files to if it is up to date enough to get the same results without much manually checking.

[Dewsloth]

Do you have a list of the Study Accession ids for those samples? I want to check my database against those files to if it is up to date enough to get the same results without much manually checking.

Data, Materials, and Software Availability
Sequencing data can be found in the European Nucleotide Archive (ENA) at EMBL-EBI under Accession No. PRJEB70768 (51).
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB70768

[Dewsloth]

Here are the samples geographically with midrange dates.  I added the three that can't be confirmed, as well.  I wish they were better quality so we could rule them in or out, especially HVN001.
Other observations:
To date there still aren't any DF19 ancients in the Isles before the Roman period, nor are there any at all in France or Spain.  Maybe that will change.  Given that there are Berber modern DF19s there still could be more to find from Vandal samples.  The sole one in Rome looks autosomally NWEuro.  We don't yet have G25 for Illerup bog sacrifice or Valkenburg.  DF88 and Z302 are the larger two of four known immediate DF19 subclades - the other two have not been found in any ancients. Part of the reason for missing ancients must be cremation burial traditions.

[faulconer]

As a Z17112 (of some variant), RKF would add to our list [bold ones confirmed by FTDNA].  
According to FTDNA Discover, "The man who is the most recent common ancestor of this line is estimated to have been born around 1450 BCE."
There are eight nine known surviving lines of descent from Z17112:  R-Z27257, R-S17075, R-PH3649, R-Z21380, R-FT354149, R-FTA73126, R-BY107827 and 2 yet unnamed lineages.
NEO52 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123 LN LN 1816 BCE Vattenledningen, Skåne, Sweden
R10657 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257/S9287 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria Batavi Auxiliary Roman
6DT23 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>FT214931/Z43034 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman
HID001 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration
RKF263 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 [perhaps 530-680 CE?] Hungarian Sarmatian-period cemetery, Sarmatian ally? 
KOS017 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z43277>Z43258>Z43261>Z43468  651-774 CE Koksijde Belgium, relocated Saxon
KOS016 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>L719>Z30475 671-822 CE Koksijde Belgium, relocated Saxon
I17277 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>S10067 [per FTDNA] 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England
--OR-- DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 Saxon? Migration/ME [per alternate analysis]
VK333 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123>Z29034>Z29040 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Öland, Sweden Viking Viking
When/if we get Fenstanton and Koksijde analysis, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see more Z17112 if the quality allows. [well that seems like a decent call now ]

Now we have the pair from Koksijde confirmed by FTDNA ^^^

Do you have a list of the Study Accession ids for those samples? I want to check my database against those files to if it is up to date enough to get the same results without much manually checking.

Clearly, the successful descendent of S4268 was Z17112! 

It's interesting to me that my branch (R-S8137, "brother" of Z17112) splits and then we have no sign of it until 12th or 13th century Scotland. Based on surnames and location, my current guess is that the ancestor came from Flanders to Scotland (Biggar area) during the Norman period but since we have no ancient samples, this line could have been anywhere before that point. 

It looks like one brother went off to glory with the Romans and (later) Vikings while my line stayed home and managed a farm somewhere

[Dewsloth]

Now we have the pair from Koksijde confirmed by FTDNA ^^^

Do you have a list of the Study Accession ids for those samples? I want to check my database against those files to if it is up to date enough to get the same results without much manually checking.

Clearly, the successful descendent of S4268 was Z17112! 

It's interesting to me that my branch (R-S8137, "brother" of Z17112) splits and then we have no sign of it until 12th or 13th century Scotland. Based on surnames and location, my current guess is that the ancestor came from Flanders to Scotland (Biggar area) during the Norman period but since we have no ancient samples, this line could have been anywhere before that point. 

It looks like one brother went off to glory with the Romans and (later) Vikings while my line stayed home and managed a farm somewhere

FTDNA just found another DF19 in the Merovingian paper, and he's yet another branch of Z17112 (Sorry Faulconer!  I would love to have some of the "mystery brother clades" found in burials.)

Truiden_EarlyMedieval:OLV072 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>PH3649

^^I think the sample is not in the greatest shape, which is why he has a LBA-era "terminal" SNP and why the paper just had him at R1b.  Dating is a little vague on him as there were samples from that site in two different periods spanning from before 1000 CE and also 1000-1200 CE.

Now [bold confirmed by FTDNA]:
NEO52 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123 1816 BCE Vattenledningen, Skåne, Sweden Beaker-like Nordic Late Neolithic
R10657 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257/S9287 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria Batavi Auxiliary Roman
6DT23 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>FT214931/Z43034 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman
HID001 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration*
RKF263 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 [perhaps 530-680 CE?] Hungarian Sarmatian-period cemetery, Sarmatian ally? 
KOS017 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z43277>Z43258>Z43261>Z43468  651-774 CE Koksijde Belgium, Saxon+Gaul
KOS016 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>L719>Z30475 671-822 CE Koksijde Belgium, Saxon+Gaul
I17277 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>S10067 [per FTDNA] 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England Saxon? Migration/ME*
--OR-- DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 [per alternate analysis]
VK333 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123>Z29034>Z29040 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Öland, Sweden Viking Viking
OLV072 DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>PH3649 Sint-Truiden, Belgium 1100 CE? Local Lotharingian/Frank

*These samples identified in Gretzinger as typical CNE.