A thread for Ancient DF19 samples ... we're up to 16

[Dewsloth]

The current tally of ancients:

Code:

ID Date Burial YDNA Culture Period

I5748 2579-2211 calBCE Oostwoud, Noord-Holland DF19>Z302* Aceramic Single Grave/Beaker Beaker

I13028 2456-2141 calBCE Ottoland-Kromme, Zuid-Holland DF19>DF88* Barbed Wire Beaker Beaker

I26830 1620-1311 calBCE Wervershoof-Zwaagdijk, Noord-Holland DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281  Netherlands_MBA/Tumulus/Sögel-Wohlde Elp

I17607 800-550 BCE Louny, Stradonice, Czech Republic DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281  Czech_IA_Hallstatt C or D Hallstatt

R10657 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S9287 Batavi Auxiliary Roman

6DT23 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>Z43034 Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman

FEN012  40-400 CE Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire, England DF19 Unknown, Roman

RMPR31 400 CE Mausoleo di Augosto, Rome DF19>Z302>FT292232>FT11655>Z8193>BY3448>Z39459 Unknown Roman/Migration

HID001 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration

HID002 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281 Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration

IND002 400-800 CE Alt-Inden, North Rhine, Westphalia, Germany DF19>Z302>Z39292 Franks? Migration

KOS017  651-774 CE Koksijde, Belgium DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 Relocated Saxon Migration/ME

KOS016  671-822 CE Koksijde, Belgium DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 Relocated Saxon Migration/ME

I17277 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 Saxon? Migration/ME

VK333 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Oland, Sweden DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z29034 Viking Viking

PCA0299 1000-1200 CE Groszowice, Opole, Poland DF19>DF88 Unknown ME

[Dewsloth]

Thanks to Schnurkeramik's analysis of the Allentoft paper samples, we seem to have our very first DF19 from the Nordic Late Neolithic!!

Country Region Site Date Site period Sample period Con path Conserv call Gen path Generous call Orig path Original call Context notes Site notes
NEO52 Sweden Skåne Vattenledningen 1816 BCE LN LN R-Z17123 R-Z17123 R-L23>L51>P310 Grave 430 cemetery

The call of Z17123 is important as this is the same line as VK333 from Oland, Sweden, 2,600 years later!

I would like to know a lot more about the dating of the site and burials, as this makes the terminal SNP quite a bit older than the FTDNA SNP-only/evidence-blind estimate.  It's not the first time we've seen this happen, but it seems more extreme.

^^That's all I know about him so far, other than that he is in this report:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...4.490594v5

So the chronological list is now:
ID Date Burial YDNA Culture Period

I5748 2579-2211 calBCE Oostwoud, Noord-Holland DF19>Z302* Aceramic Single Grave/Beaker Beaker

I13028 2456-2141 calBCE Ottoland-Kromme, Zuid-Holland DF19>DF88* Barbed Wire Beaker Beaker

NEO52 1816 BCE Vattenledningen, Skåne, Sweden DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123 LN LN

I26830 1620-1311 calBCE Wervershoof-Zwaagdijk, Noord-Holland DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281  Netherlands_MBA/Tumulus/Sögel-Wohlde Elp

I17607 800-550 BCE Louny, Stradonice, Czech Republic DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281  Czech_IA_Hallstatt C or D Hallstatt

R10657 26 - 126 calCE Klosterneuburg, Austria DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S9287 Batavi Auxiliary Roman

6DT23 c.250 CE Driffield Terrace, York, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>Z43034 Roman Britain Auxiliary? Roman

FEN012  40-400 CE Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire, England DF19 Unknown, Roman

RMPR31 400 CE Mausoleo di Augosto, Rome DF19>Z302>FT292232>FT11655>Z8193>BY3448>Z39459 Unknown Roman/Migration

HID001 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY107827 Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration

HID002 530 CE Hiddestorf, Germany DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281 Saxons, Franks or Thuringians? Migration

IND002 400-800 CE Alt-Inden, North Rhine, Westphalia, Germany DF19>Z302>Z39292 Franks? Migration

KOS017  651-774 CE Koksijde, Belgium DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 Relocated Saxon Migration/ME

KOS016  671-822 CE Koksijde, Belgium DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 Relocated Saxon Migration/ME

I17277 600-900 CE Hartlepool, Olive St, Durham, England DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>BY42641>Z41639>S18811 Saxon? Migration/ME

VK333 885 ± 69 CE Vickleby, Oland, Sweden DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149>Z17125>Z17123>Z29034 Viking Viking

PCA0299 1000-1200 CE Groszowice, Opole, Poland DF19>DF88 Unknown ME

[Dewsloth]

More info on NEO52's site from the paper's supplement:

Vattenledningen, Scania, Sweden. Cemetery and settlement.
Yvonne Magnusson
Due to construction of a water supply line in 2005 between Hyllie water tower in Malmö and
Vellinge, Malmö Kulturmiljö conducted an archaeological excavation.
The area which was surveyed consisted of long narrow excavation trenches in north-south
direction through the northern part of Vellinge municipality. The area is located just east of
Hököpinge and just over a km west of Hököpinge church village, and north of Pilebäcken
which flows in an easterly direction towards the Öresund. The area is on a ridge, which
slopes southwards towards Pilebäcken.
The excavation area turned out to be an area of relatively intense prehistoric activity. The
remains that emerged consisted of settlements, graves and fire-related remains which dated
from the end of the Early Neolithic to the Roman Iron Age, a span of about 3000 years.
In the southern part of Area 3, a burial ground with six flat earth graves, hearths, pits and
scattered post holes appeared. Five of the six flat graves were dated to the transition
between the Late Neolithic Age and the Bronze Age and one to the later part of the Early
Bronze Age.
The grave A 430 has been interpreted as a skeleton grave, possibly a double grave where
the bodies are buried in a row. It appeared as an approximately 3.50 m long colored staining
in east-west direction with scattered skeletal parts in the surface. Skeletal parts, which were
highly fragmented, from two people were found in two concentrations, one in the western
and one in the eastern part of the grave.
313
In the western part of the grave there was a crushed skull and different bone remnants. The
body had been placed with its head to the west facing north. In the eastern part of the grave,
there were a few additional cranial parts and bone remains. Traces of soot were found
around the skull. According to the osteological analysis, the bones were from two adult
males, who died at the age of 20 and 25-30 years. One skeletal sample was 14Cdated with
the result 1943–1748 BC, corresponding to the Late Neolithic in Scandinavian chronology. In
the grave filling, scattered artefacts were found in the form of two flint flakes and a fossil sea
urchin.
One sample, NEO052, from A430 was analysed. The sample was a tooth from the individual
found in the grave N° 430.
Literature: Arcini 2007263; Gidlöf & Gruber 2009264.

[Dewsloth]

Well this is fun.  Not an ancient, strictly speaking, but FTDNA's Discover added a new "Notable Connection" and he's a Swede, like VK333 and NEO52, but a different branch of Z17112.

As a Z17112>Z27257>FT356723 he is closest to Klosterneuburg's auxiliary R10657 (Z27257 is an equivalent to S9287).

Björn Ahlander, “the Last Viking Captain,” is a Swedish sailor and captain best known for commanding the Draken Harald Hårfagre, a modern-day replica of a Viking longship, the world’s largest Viking ship sailing in modern times.

More information:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...12/notable

[Capsian20]

Thanks you @Dewsloth for this information im interested about this subclade ,my family side my grandmother maternal are belong under this branch but unfortunately they arent do WGS or Y-700

[Dewsloth]

Thanks you @Dewsloth for this information im interested about this subclade ,my family side my grandmother maternal are belong under this branch but unfortunately they arent do WGS or Y-700

If your cousin could ever get a FTDNA kit shipped there and back, I bet the DF19 Group would take up a collection to help pay for the Big Y test.  Heck, I'd love to see his G25 coordinates, too.  He might be the closest thing we have to a Vandal descendant in North Africa.

[Capsian20]

Thanks you @Dewsloth for this information im interested about this subclade ,my family side my grandmother maternal are belong under this branch but unfortunately they arent do WGS or Y-700

If your cousin could ever get a FTDNA kit shipped there and back, I bet the DF19 Group would take up a collection to help pay for the Big Y test.  Heck, I'd love to see his G25 coordinates, too.  He might be the closest thing we have to a Vandal descendant in North Africa.

 I will try to convince him I trying for 3 years but to no avail
his Autosomal 100 Berber more me lol

[Dewsloth]

Here is ph2ter's BA map of NEO52:




Edit:  More maps (Roman Era, Modern and Neolithic) here:
More maps

[Capsian20]

Here is ph2ter's BA map of NEO52:




Edit:  More maps (Roman Era, Modern and Neolithic) here:
More maps

@Dewsloth oh thanks you , great so this look my ancestors profile DNA side my grandmother maternal a long time maybe about 1600-2000 years

[Dewsloth]

Here is ph2ter's BA map of NEO52:




Edit:  More maps (Roman Era, Modern and Neolithic) here:
More maps

@Dewsloth oh thanks you , great so this look my ancestors profile DNA side my grandmother maternal a long time maybe about 1600-2000 years

Yes, it's possible the IA/Roman map at the "More Maps" link may be something like what your cousin's DF19 ancestor line looked like before their travels south and across the Mediterranean Sea (also maybe Mausoleo di Augusto RMPR31, Klosterneuburg R10657 and/or the U106 Poprad Vandal DA119).  

It's interesting that there weren't any DF19 in the Szolad or Collegno (or Girona) samples, but a line or two seem to have survived in Iberia and North Africa in moderns.  They probably didn't form a majority anywhere, and were just in with the U106 (and I1?) populations (and of course nobody then knew there was any difference).  Just lucky finds.

[Dewsloth]

Just to get a feel for the ancient samples, this is a distance Top 5 moderns for each of the samples we have G25 for.
Obviously this is not what they are, simply an idea of where they group. In chron order from 2500 BCE to 1100 CE:

Distance to: Netherlands_BellBeaker:I5748
0.04803485 Swedish
0.04834112 Icelandic
0.04854748 Norwegian
0.05047160 Danish
0.05182485 Shetlandic

Distance to: Netherlands_LNB_BellBeaker:I13028
0.04313812 Swedish
0.04335837 Norwegian
0.04474766 Icelandic
0.04637783 Danish
0.04761762 Shetlandic

Distance to: SWE_N_Vattenledningen:NEO52__BC_1816
0.04796648 Swedish
0.04916238 Norwegian
0.05114100 Icelandic
0.05237784 Danish
0.05427827 Irish

Distance to: Netherlands_MBA:I26830
0.03541089 Norwegian
0.03554400 Swedish
0.03647264 Icelandic
0.03708407 Danish
0.04186675 Irish

Distance to: CZE_IA_Hallstatt_low_res:I17607
0.05102052 Shetlandic
0.05129149 Norwegian
0.05308370 Danish
0.05321384 Swedish
0.05363114 Icelandic

Distance to: Austria_Klosterneuburg_Roman.SG:R10657.SG
0.02813083 Norwegian
0.02823519 Icelandic
0.03048690 Danish
0.03214705 Swedish
0.03217249 Irish

Distance to: England_IA_Roman.SG:6DT23_noUDG.SG
0.02733832 English
0.02768568 English_Cornwall
0.02793634 Orcadian
0.02846997 Scottish
0.02990972 Welsh

Distance to: Italy_LA_o3CentralEuropean.SG:R31.SG
0.03408754 Welsh
0.03456648 Dutch
0.03501640 Danish
0.03597701 English
0.03641697 German

Distance to: Germany_Hiddestorf_Saxon_EMedieval:HID001.A_noUDG
0.02297083 Danish
0.02337727 Icelandic
0.02351212 Swedish
0.02373926 Norwegian
0.02814307 German_Hamburg

Distance to: Germany_Hiddestorf_Saxon_EMedieval:HID002.A_noUDG
0.02938798 Icelandic
0.03242407 Danish
0.03278972 Norwegian
0.03321097 Scottish
0.03334194 Orcadian

Distance to: Germany_AltInden_Saxon_EMedieval:IND002.A_noUDG
0.02264113 BelgianA
0.02328833 French_Brittany
0.02399607 Orcadian
0.02429744 Welsh
0.02462169 English_Cornwall

Distance to: England_EarlyMedieval:I17277
0.02699474 Irish
0.02703899 Icelandic
0.02790870 Norwegian
0.02890259 Scottish
0.02932768 Danish

Distance to: Sweden_Viking.SG:VK333_noUDG.SG
0.02424640 BelgianB
0.02580782 French_Paris
0.02660059 French_Nord
0.02662883 French_Alsace
0.02699234 BelgianC

Distance to: 1000-1200_AD_Groszowice_PCA0299CA0299
0.06669924 Swedish
0.06825509 Danish
0.06840516 Icelandic
0.06971252 German_Hamburg
0.06976096 Norwegian

[Dewsloth]

This is the only information I have so far on the Koksijde "Saxons."

https://oar.onroerenderfgoed.be/publicat...13-001.pdf
See table on p.26 and graphic on p.28:
Koksijde S36 KOS016 HV0a R1b5-S4268
Koksijde S50 KOS017 U4b1a3a R1b5-S4268

[Dewsloth]

Fenstanton is from here:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...265v1.full
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...y-material

ID PSN Site YchrCov    ISOGG Y haplogroup terminal marker FT-TMRCA (ybp) Main geographic spread in FT customer base FT customers Ancient Samples
FEN012 2011 Fenstanton    0.010 R1b1a1b1a1a2e R1b5 DF19 4300 Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, England, Scotland 962 2

They have [infuriatingly] left him off the PCA in Figure 1, after nicely plotting all the Driffield guys.

6DT23 and FEN012 are the first two DF19s to be found in the Isles, and both are ~Roman era.
Amazing that none have been found there older than that, since the oldest ones are nearly 3000 years older, right across the North Sea in West Frisia.

[Dewsloth]

Fun with IBD:

First off, R10657, our probable Batavi auxiliary who was buried in Klosterneuburg, near Vienna.
He shares 16cM+ IBD segments with two other samples:
R10657.SG I17275 16.05300903 16.05300903 1 16.05300903 1 16.05300903 1 0 0
R10657.SG 6DT23_noUDG.SG 16.53419733 16.53419733 1 16.53419733 1 16.53419733 1 0 0

Sample IDs:
R10657.SG R10657 Pannonia province, Klosterneuburg 48.3099 16.3238 1863 26-126 calCE (1940±15 BP, UCIAMS-237559) Austria AntoniobioRxiv2022 Austria_Klosterneuburg_Roman.SG 715033 .. M
I17275 England, North Yorkshire, Stockton-on-Tees, Norton, Norton East Mill 54.594544 -1.309398 1400 500-600 CE United Kingdom GretzingerNature2022 England_EarlyMedieval 623797 2.369505 F
6DT23 England, Yorkshire, Driffield Terrace 53.958333 -1.080278 1750 50-350 CE United Kingdom MartinianoNatureCommunications2016 England_IA_Roman.SG 466879 0.647 M

Both samples are from Yorkshire, England, but wait!
I17275 is from a Saxon cemetery, 6DT23 is much older, and autosomally looked more like a half(?) local also with continental ancestry.  So the kinship with R10657 is consistent, if not the whole story.  Perhaps multiple generations of service as auxiliaries on the Wall or Limes.

Now if we try the same thing with 6DT23, he, too, has two IBD matches, buuuuuut "Saxon" I17275 isn't one of them:
R10657.SG 6DT23_noUDG.SG 16.53419733 16.53419733 1 16.53419733 1 16.53419733 1 0 0
6DT23_noUDG.SG I19909 12.2633934 12.2633934 1 12.2633934 1 0 0 0 0

R10657 is there of course, but the second match is a MIA Iron Age Brit:
I19909 England, Kent, East Kent Access Road 51.3603 1.3405 2227 381-197 calBCE (2215±30 BP, SUERC-40288) United Kingdom PattersonNature2021 England_MIA 798285 3.634 M

^^^So could be consistent with the local/descendant-of-auxiliary mix.

[Dewsloth]

We might have a new ancient/Migration sample. 
I found it reported here:  https://www.theytree.com/tree/R-DF88
see RKF263.
Y6237 is the equivalent of Z17112, so he would be at least DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112, with perhaps more to be determined, as TheYTree.com calls seem to be on the conservative side.

This one is from a paper abstract about Avars https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB72021
"Network of large pedigrees reveals social practices of Avar communities" 

"From 567/68 CE, the onset of the Avar period, populations from the Eurasian Steppe settled in the Carpathian Basin for approximately 250 years. An extensive sampling for archaeogenomics (424 individuals) and isotopes, combined with archaeological, anthropological, and historical contextualization on four Avar-period cemeteries, allowed for a detailed description of the genomic structure of these communities and their kinship and social practices.

The wiki on Pannonian Avars has a few possible hints on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#

Avar arrival in Europe:  " The Carpathian Basin was occupied by the Gepids. In 567 the Avars formed an alliance with the Lombards—enemies of the Gepids—and together they destroyed much of the Gepid kingdom. The Avars then persuaded the Lombards to move into northern Italy, an invasion that marked the last Germanic mass-movement in the Migration Period." 

and "Early Avar period (580–670)
By about 580, the Avar Khagan Bayan I had established supremacy over most of the Slavic, Germanic and Bulgar tribes living in Pannonia and the Carpathian Basin"

As an aside, it's fascinating to me the Avar helmet shown at the wiki above is actually from a set of Alamanni graves at Niederstotzingen where most of the men are from a U106 family.  https://www.medieval.eu/kinship-and-cult...h-century/
Also this sample seems to date after 530 CE when the Franks and Saxons crushed the Thuringians, so he could be part of some dispersed tribe.