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C-V86 thread
(12-26-2023, 02:51 AM)Kale Wrote: Could you describe what you mean by 'less basal form of WHG'?

WHG are essentially a 2-way mix of AHG + Vestonice.,but the weighting of these components might be different, e.g. Italian WHG have more Vestonice, less AHG, + Ive even seen fits with them requiring some Fournal-related admixture (Western Europe-> Tyrrhenian Gravettian). 

I.G., on the other hand, have more AHG (but this represents a complex- bidirectional formulation) . EHG have even more AHG/ Dzudzuana type ancestry (consistent with Lazaridies "Dzudzuana" fig 6)
Running4Borders likes this post
(12-24-2023, 11:55 PM)pkchu Wrote:
(12-24-2023, 07:35 PM)kolompar Wrote: You are right, they are all farmers. I got a bit carried away with my Caucasus theory with all the haplogroups. I blame OP for misguiding me. Big Grin
There's also a Minoan on that branch and a modern Pontic Greek/Turk. So you might just have to go with the simple explanation that it's just a minor Anatolian line, and the C-V86 ancestor at 20k BC was in Anatolia (or wherever the ancestor of Anatolian farmers was). That is around the end of the LGM, probably still not time for a larger migration.
A lot of these splits seem to coincide with such natural events, C-V20 TMRCA is estimated at around 40k BC, roughly the same as that between I and J, which is the time of the Campanian Ignimbrite eruption which could have wiped out South/East Europe's population, leaving it to be repopulated from somewhere else.

There's no primordialistic entity as 'Anatolian Farmers' which existed in Anatolia since 20000 bc.
A more detailed understanding of C1a-V20 reveals a different picture. Within C1a-V20 there are 2 clades.  C-BY1463 has not been found in a single Anatolian individual, despite scores of prehistoric Anatolian data, but has already been found from in high HG ancestry individuals with an east Carpathian focus. The second subclade within C1a-V20 is C-PH428, which is found in both Anatolia and European side of the Bosoprus. And given that upstream of C-V3163 can be found in Dolni Vestonice, Goyet, etc, it's actually a no brainer.

Please enlighten us with your more detailed understanding because you just restated what's already been posted.
The Balkans is way better sampled than Anatolia, both modern and ancient. There's only around a hundred pre-Bronze Age samples from Turkey and already by the Neolithic there was a haplogroup J takeover while the South/East was always more J/E heavy. Not a lot of chance for a line that might be a few percent to show up.
On the other hand there's around 50 Mesolithic samples just from Serbia/Romania Iron Gates, and around 200 from Neolithic/Chalcolithic Balkans. At this point the Balkans should be a better representation of Anatolian farmer haplogroup diversity than Anatolia itself, while I don't know why we would want to go by the farmers' haplogroups for Mesolithic. There's even more Mesolithic/"Neolithic" HGs from Ukraine than farmers.
The Romanian and Ukrainian C-BY1463 guys are both 80+% Anatolian, the Minoan has around 1% WHG, and Pontians are mostly assimilated locals so the modern sample should be informative too.
Why would the haplogroup come from such minority ancestry, instead of the overwhelming majority? Especially when the closest relative is also clearly Anatolian?
How do you explain a large migration from barely inhabitable Ice Age Europe? Why would it be a line that isn't even found there in the Mesolithic, and not the major I2 and U5 haplogroups?
How is the 40k BC split telling us anything? It's such an early date that there's no reason to put it in Europe as people would have just arrived there (from where do you think?). But we actually have the Balkans sampled at that period and we know those people went extinct and were replaced by the ancestors of later C-V20 people.
Running4Borders likes this post
Quarterly straw report. A while back I dove into Geni pages for several of the C-V222 paternal ancestors listed on the ftdna C haplogroup page. Have no idea at all how reliable Geni is, but the information on that site at least might sometimes be accurate.

Noticed that 2 of the English C-V222 paternal ancestors listed likely traced their paternal roots to France. They have Anglicized French surnames from families that moved to England after the Norman conquest (I don't know how frequently non-French English adopted French last names back in the day though). I'm assuming Scottish surnames are typically less good for deep genealogical digging.

There's also a modern C-V20 man (who's probably V222+?) who used to be on the Facebook C page who's from Northern France & I believe might have had a Flemish last name (?) (this is the strawest of the straws).

I've been thinking that the NW V222 grouping was centered in modern day France once upon a time though. V222 might have entered Britain during multiple eras from France. It doesn't seem to be in Beaker or Germanic etc samples.

This at least wouldn't not align with a potential Greek/Italian origin of most if not all V222 lines in my view. It just would also align with 1,000,000,000,000 other hypotheses as well, many of which would include celts etc w/ ties to eastern central Europe.

I think V222's mrca *probably* traced his paternal origin to the Hungarian/Ukrainian/Bulgarian V3918/V182 hotspot but the line might have broken away from that region very early on and moved south into or near modern day Greece or southwest (or into Anatolia, or obviously could have been there to begin with / Kydonia's paternal ancestors could have been near eastern in their not so distant past).

It's also not completely out of the realm of possibility Kydonia's line came from Italy like the globetrekker feature is suggesting. There are archaeological ties between Italy and Mycenaean Greece (Kydonia appears to have mainland admixture to me) and I think very early genetic links between the regions have been shown in some sheep/goat gene sequencing too (this is the 2nd strawest straw probably). Quite the time to be alive. But imagine the movements of people likely was more Greece ----> Italy during that period/there were more Greek/Aegean commercial centers.
Qrts and Ambiorix like this post
There are a whopping/staggering/jaw-dropping *35* C-V222 downstream customers in the "unknown origin" category now. Wondering if these are haplo unlocked autosomal transfer customers.

There are also new V3918*/FT421665 members on yfull/ftdna from Turkey, Israel, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, and Azerbaijan. So far looks like the last common ancestor estimate of their branches is still hovering around 4900ybp.

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