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Seeing language from the DNA
(04-14-2024, 08:39 PM)Jaska Wrote: Alanarchae:
Quote:That to me suggests a lingua franca existed over wide areas because you couldn’t have a load of ’princes’ returning home on adulthood unable to communicate with their own people. In fact  I’ve pondered whether one of the points of fosterage (there are a few others) was homogenising of the elite’s dialect over vast areas. Though less the case after c.450BC, much of the status of bronze age and early iron age elites seemed to be linked to controlling long distance exchange.

Thank you for clarification. It is unlikely that nursing-age babies were given away - more probably the children were already speaking their native language when they moved. Therefore lingua franca is not the only possibility. Usually the contacts fit within the following types:

1. Between closely related dialects/languages it is common that each person speaks his/her own language, and they learn the differences between the meanings of the shared words. This was the situation during the Hanseatic League between the speakers of Old Swedish and Middle Low German.

2. In other cases, there have always been people fluent in foreign languages. When two language communities live nearby, there are usually also mixed marriages, leading to bilingual children. And in addition to the bilingual individuals, there were people more or less fluent with the neighbor language.

3. The same language shared by elites of different people/state is only one of the possible options, and even then it is not automatic that the elite language would prevail. Norman French speakers conquered England, yet their language could not replace English, and neither could Old Norse in regions reigned by the vikings before that. In Hungary, arriving languages followed each other (Huns, Avars, Slavs, Franks), but all the earlier languages were replaced by Hungarian since the late 9th century, but none of the languages of the following migrating or conquering people was able to replace it (Cumans, Pechenegs, Mongols, [Austrian] Germans). It is an unpredictable, mostly chance-based process, which newcomer language manages to replace older languages and which does not manage. This cannot be determined from the archaeological or genetic data. 

Then, how can we tell, when a dialectal leveling or language shift has occurred? We cannot see that from the archaeological or genetic data, but only linguistic evidence can tell it. Usually phonological level retains the ancient divergence processes, even when the lexical level, the morphology, and the syntax have been leveled. We can still see these ancient divergence processes in German (Low German vs. High German), Estonian (North Estonian vs. South Estonian), Finnish (West Finnish vs. East Finnish), etc.

In general I agree with your expose.  Although I think that in the third case English after the Norman French influence was much more differentiated from my Friso-Saxon language (a Hanseatic league language with an old Frisian substrate beneath it) language before it than after it....but minor detail.

Then, how can we tell, when a dialectal leveling or language shift has occurred? "We cannot see that from the archaeological or genetic data, but only linguistic evidence can tell it."

Yes and again until there are no records! And in that case genetic data or archeological can provide a clue (no more than that). For example if we think in country a certain language was spoken, and there was an influx of the people into another region in which we unfortunately have no recordings/ sources of when the influx took place, but we do see a change in genetics and pottery for example, we can make assumptions (not more than that) about possible language influences. Even more when later on the language shows similarities to the language of the people of the influx.

For example in the Anglo-Saxon case. From the influx into England we have no texts. When the earliest substantial example of English is the lawcode of King Æthelberht of Kent (reigned c. 589–616), then we have no records of the actual migration period. Nevertheless based on genetics and archeology we can detest it were people from the "bottleneck" and Danish Isles c.q. extended Southern Scandinavia that went to England (and Friesland). As can be attested through the text of the lawcode (NW Germanic influenced language).

Genetics and archeology can be perfect "auxiliary sciences" Jaska!
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Messages In This Thread
Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 12:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Quint - 02-04-2024, 04:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Bjørn - 02-04-2024, 06:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Ebizur - 02-04-2024, 07:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-04-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-04-2024, 09:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-04-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-04-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 04:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 01:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 12:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Vinitharya - 02-05-2024, 02:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 09:06 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 05:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 06:12 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 06:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-05-2024, 11:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 08:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-05-2024, 08:54 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-05-2024, 08:57 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by RCO - 02-05-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 12:17 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 08:20 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-06-2024, 05:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 06:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 08:56 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:33 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 03:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Gortaleen - 02-06-2024, 03:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-06-2024, 04:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 05:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 09:27 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 02-07-2024, 01:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 09:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by ph2ter - 02-06-2024, 10:47 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-06-2024, 11:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 12:09 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-07-2024, 12:31 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-07-2024, 05:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-07-2024, 01:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 05:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-07-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-09-2024, 06:28 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-09-2024, 06:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-09-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by tutut - 02-07-2024, 06:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by rmstevens2 - 02-10-2024, 10:03 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 10:54 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 04:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 05:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-11-2024, 05:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:00 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 05:41 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-11-2024, 11:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:45 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-11-2024, 05:43 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-11-2024, 08:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 12:42 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 07:24 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 12:17 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 01:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 01:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 04:01 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 02:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-12-2024, 02:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 03:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 09:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:13 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:16 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:20 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:24 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-12-2024, 06:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:33 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 10:35 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 03:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:53 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-12-2024, 06:29 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 02-12-2024, 06:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Orentil - 02-12-2024, 09:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rober_tce - 02-12-2024, 11:10 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-12-2024, 11:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Pylsteen - 02-13-2024, 04:15 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 05:31 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 02-13-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 07:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-13-2024, 07:34 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:09 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 08:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by JonikW - 02-13-2024, 10:26 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 02-13-2024, 08:05 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 12:00 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 02-14-2024, 02:59 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-14-2024, 05:15 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-17-2024, 05:14 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Parastais - 02-19-2024, 06:57 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:07 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 12:38 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 06:23 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 09:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:08 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:25 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 10:36 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-19-2024, 10:53 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-19-2024, 11:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 12:50 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 01:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 06:36 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-20-2024, 10:22 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Queequeg - 02-20-2024, 02:02 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:45 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-20-2024, 08:49 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Æsir - 02-26-2024, 05:58 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 02-26-2024, 11:42 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-09-2024, 10:19 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-12-2024, 11:21 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 12:58 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 01:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 09:14 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:30 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:10 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:16 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 10:35 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 10:29 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-13-2024, 10:49 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-13-2024, 11:13 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-13-2024, 11:37 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 10:51 AM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 01:44 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 02:46 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 05:55 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Kale - 04-14-2024, 06:19 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by jdean - 04-14-2024, 06:37 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by alanarchae - 04-14-2024, 07:28 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by AimSmall - 04-14-2024, 06:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-14-2024, 08:39 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 05:40 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Cejo - 04-15-2024, 07:06 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Rodoorn - 04-15-2024, 07:22 PM
RE: Seeing language from the DNA - by Jaska - 04-15-2024, 08:42 PM

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